9mm - .40 - .45

[Phoebe Ann]

I went and looked at guns today. What fun that was. I was lucky enough to find someone behind the counter who was very knowledgable and able to communicate that knowledge to me. I was very proud to be the only woman amongst about 10 men at the counter. I learned some good stuff today.

I saw a Sig 9mm that I liked but the gun was just too big in size to conceal on me. I asked him if there were 9mm smaller in size. (By the time I left, he suggested I maybe take a look at a Baretta PX4 Storm Sub Compact.)

He began to tell me about the guns, the weight of the bullets (I'm sure y'all don't call them bullets) and velocity. The whole velocity thing was so interesting. He said the velocity of a 9mm is fast thus able to cut through your target (victim) quickly. He said it was not uncommon to hear a story about a "target" being shot several times and still not down. He explained how a .45 has a slower velocity therefore picking up energy as it travels and making a more fatal impact. So I asked then why would someone use a 9mm vs. a .45 if the goal is personal protection and the 9mm might not do the job? My sole intent is personal protection and if I'm a good shot, I don't want my target still standing when I hit with a 9mm. I don't want any second guessing if it's between me and someone who is threatening my life.

Am I going in the right direction here or am I missing something?

 

[Ranger60]

You are definately taking a good first step by learning all you can. Firearms are very personal and it all depends on what you are comfortable with,, does it fit your hand, can you handle the recoil, how are you carrying it or will it be in the house. There are many variables in the choice.

Do you have a range where you can rent various firearms to try them out?

Perhaps a family member or friends that can take you out to the range?

However, one important point is your mindset, if something bad happens, you will have to react quickly, without hesitation, knowing you may have to shoot a person. You have to be mentally prepared to do that.

Also, you do need to practice, you cannot just buy a firearm, load it and forget it. Plan some range time.

Hope this helps?

 

[GTRich94]

Take a look at this website for a woman’s perspective on guns. It's got lots of good info and some really good advice.
[url]http://www.corneredcat.com/[/URL]

The 9 vs. 40 vs. 45 discussion is a pretty common on almost every firearm site. A few Google searches will probably get you more info than you ever wanted on the topic. I'm still very new to shooting (have really only been shooting since January) and I only own a .22lr pistol. However, I have rented/borrowed guns in all three calibers. Personally, I like the 9mm the best. Compared to my 22, the 9mm has the least amount of recoil and it was the caliber I felt I could control the best in a rapid fire situation (next to my .22). In the 9mm, I rented the Beretta 92FS and the Beretta PX4 Storm. Both guns are probably larger than you are looking to carry. Since it's a polymer gun, the recoil in the full sized PX4 was more than the all metal 92FS. However, the recoil in those guns was much less than the 40's or 45's I've shot. I really didn't like the 40 at all. In the 40, I shot an H&K compact and a Springfield XD. For me, both guns felt completely out of control when I shot them. Also, unless I happened to hit the BG with the first shot, there's no way I was going to get off a set of rapid shots that would be anywhere close to each other. Which leaves the 45. I have a friend with a Kimber sub-compact and even though it's the largest caliber of the three, I'm really learning to like the gun. It's got more kick than the 9, but after shooting about 100 rounds through my friend’s gun, I feel like I'm getting better control over the recoil. I also feel like it has less kick than the 40's. I'm sure I would get there eventually with a 40 as well, but I was so turned off by my first experience with it, I would be hard pressed to try it again.

I'm sure you'll see other people say it, but the best thing you could do would be to go to a range that rents guns and try out a bunch of them. It may cost you a couple hundred dollars, but it will save you the expense of buying a gun you hate and then having to buy another. The other thing to remember is that caliber comes in second to accuracy. So to answer your Q, why would you choose a 9 over a 45? The 40/45 doesn’t do you any good if you can’t hit the broad side of a barn with it. I’ll take a BG who was hit by a couple of 9mm rounds over the one who was missed by a full magazine of 40’s or 45’s.

 

[TexMex247]

9mm,40,45,etc.

Well Phoebe,
In my experience, shot placement is much more important than caliber. You need to find a gun that fits your hands right and shoots right where you aim it. You need to take into consideration the amount of pull required for the trigger and/or slide if you go semi-auto. IME most women are better shooters than their male counterparts(Hate to say it gentlemen) but "ladies" guns(small frames, ultra-lites,etc.) tend to be so lightweight that they have unpleasant recoil. Also many women lack the handstrength to chamber the first round in some semi-autos. I would recommend shooting several guns, both semi-autos and revolvers. You may find that you like a heavier gun like full size revolvers which are much larger but have better accuracy(due to sight distance) and much less recoil. They are intimidating but kick less. If you're looking for concealability, I personally recommend a S&W 99 or Wather P99, plenty of capacity and nice slim grips. No matter which you choose, they will all get it done if you put even one bullet in the right spot.....and if you're lucky you will eventually own several of them like me.

 

[Texas42]

Phoebe Ann, you have touched on of the most controversial, ongoing, and polarizing debates in all of firearm history. Just google 9mm vs 45, and you will get LOTS of debates.

A lot of opinion is subjective and based on stories. Example, bad guy A was shot <X> number of times with <Y caliber>, but continued to do bad things. They eventually were stoped by being shot many, many times.

This story is always followed by another story of a different bad guy who got shot with <caliber z>, once and dropped dead before he hit the floor because his torso evaporated from the gunshot wound that knicked his shoulder.

This may sound silly, and I am exagerating a little bit, but not by a lot. I've heard people say things like, "it doesn't matter where I hit him with this." This is wrong.

There are some people that think that velocity is the key, making a hollowpoint expand more efficiently ect, ect and others think that a heavier bullet is better because it penetrates better ect, ect.

On top of that, you will find people who believe in the "Ultimate Caliber." They think that their one particular caliber is the best and all others are just wannabe's. Usually about 45 acp, 40S&W, 10mm, 357 sig, or 357magnum. The reality is that all calibers have their pro's and con's.

The truth is that ALL handguns are basically underpowered when compared to rifles. The one shot stop is a myth. Multiple shots are likely required to stop a determined attacker, no matter what the caliber.

[url]http://www.gunsite.co.za/images/pics/speer_selfdefense/Handgun_gel_comparisonweb.jpg[/URL]

I would say that a big hole is better than a small hole, but looking at that ballistic gel, you couldn't tell which was which just by looking at it.

It is my humble opinion that there is nothing wrong with a 9mm. The difference in power of most calibers, mathmatically, is very small. A good quality hollowpoint is a must for ANY caliber.

If you have a hard time shooting a .45acp, including followup shots, then it would be a worse choice than a 9mm. If you won't practise much with your 45 acp because the ammo is 50% to 80% more expensive than a 9mm, then I think it would be a mistake.

I'm sure some of the wiser heads will give you better explanations, but it the idea that "a .45 has a slower velocity therefore picking up energy as it travels and making a more fatal impact" just doesn't make sense.

I hope this helps.

 

[res1b3uq]

What a fantastic name for a ladies website. I've noticed one thing about the ladies-- if it's a gun, and it's loaded, and she is mad enough to point it at you,,--------your dead.

 

[Phoebe Ann]

Ranger60 - Yes, there are several ranges I can go to. I have gone to one to shoot handguns once. There are two others within close proximity. I have many guy friends who shoot and could ask them to accompany me but, for now, I'm gathering information.

GTRich94 - Someone suggested corneredcat and I love that site! I've already spread the word on it to family. Thank you.

TexMex247 - speaking of lady shooters, I heard women were used in WWII for sharp shooting as they were exceptional shots. I guess we're more calm or we obviously have less testesterone under pressure.

Texas42 - Just what did you say? I think you told me to buy a rifle and conceal it. You gave different scenarious and lots of different info, great info! Would someone please tell me what to buy??? LOL.

res1b3uq - hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...

And does anyone know who Phoebe Ann was??? A box of ammo to the first one to answer.

atriot:

 

[TxEMTP69]

corneredcat is a great site. As for caliber vs caliber, the best advice I've heard and can pass on is shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot comfortably and accurately
Whatever you decide on, please train often

 

[byronw999]

As stated above shoot as many different guns as you can until you find the one that fits you..

Dont be taken in by 'gun snobs' that say the 45 or 9mm or whatever is the only way to go... Whatever gun you feel comfortable shooting and you can shoot accurately is the right gun for you..

 

[Seabear1500]

.............Annie Oakley................

You have gotten some great asdvise so far, and you are doing the right thig to research and learn first.

I second the vote for the largest caliber you can shoot accurately and comfortably. It's no fun to have a gun you don't like shooting. It's dangerous also because you won't practice enough.

I carry a variety of guns depending on occasion and clothing. Everything from an LCP to a compact .45ACP I like them all and shoot them well. Any gun I have ever owned that for some reason I could not shoot well got sold.

Try some of your friends' guns and see what feels best. Also consider how you are going to carry and consider weight and size. Many weapons look like they would make great CCW and the simple truth is that they don't. On the other hand, many weapons that are easy to conceal aren't very comfortable to shoot. You have to find the perfect balance for "you". My wife doesn't carry, but of the weapons I have or have had, she enjoys the size and feel of a Bersa .380, she didn't care for the LCP (too snappy) She hasn't tried any of my larger Semi Autos yet, but I bet she could handle my Taurus PT145 just fine as well.

Every person's choice will be different, so don't let sombody's personal choice of weapons turn you away from a weapon that could serve you well. Good luck!

 

[Maxpower]

TexMex247 - speaking of lady shooters, I heard women were used in WWII for sharp shooting as they were exceptional shots. I guess we're more calm or we obviously have less testesterone under pressure.



The Russians used women as snipers in WWII

 

[Texas42]

Texas42 - Just what did you say? I think you told me to buy a rifle and conceal it. You gave different scenarious and lots of different info, great info! Would someone please tell me what to buy??? LOL.

Sorry I gave you that impression, but you should just realize that it might take more than one good shot.

I was trying to dispell the belief that 9mm wasn't powerful enough. I don't think I did it very well.

 

[idleprocess]

The handgun caliber debate is endless and tiresome. In general, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45ACP are all considered acceptable self-defense calibers. Quality loads in all three have similar performance in the laboratory and in the real world.

One thing that you should understand is that all common handgun cartridges operate on thin margins. Unlike rifle rounds with more than 5 times as much kinetic energy, a handgun round has marginal killing potential. Given that controlling a handgun is more difficult than a rifle, shot placement and ability to follow up is far more important than using a meaner caliber than you can handle. If you can perform surgery with a "mousegun" caliber at 50 yards but can't hit the broad side of a barn (from inside the barn) with a magnum caliber, then stick with the mousegun.

Some general information about the three most popular popular handgun calibers for your consideration:

9mm
Probably the single most common handgun cartridge, 9mm is inexpensive and easy to find. Most pistol manufacturers offer 9mm models. It is the smallest and lightest of the three major handgun cartridges, but you can carry more rounds in a similar volume compared to the others. 9mm has decent recoil characteristics and can be more pleasant to shoot in compact pistols than the other calibers.

.40 S&W
This caliber is very popular with law enforcement and is relatively new. It costs more than 9mm and is nearly as common. Its capacity is between 9mm and .45ACP. It has the greatest muzzle velocity and muzzle energy of the three, but also the most recoil of the three and a tendency to produce ferocious recoil in smaller or lighter handguns. Most describe its recoil as rather "snappy."

.45ACP
.45ACP has been in use for nearly a century and is still in common use. It has the greatest mass and bore diameter of the three but the lowest muzzle velocity. The most common .45ACP bullet mass (230 grains) is double that of 9mm (115 grains). It is also quite bulky, with around half the capacity of a similarly-sized 9mm handgun. .45ACP is considerably more expensive than .40 S&W and 9mm. Recoil is between 9mm and .40 S&W.

 

[idleprocess]

There are some other calibers on the market that you might be hearing about...

.380 Auto
Essentially a 9mm "short" round, some would say it's the absolute minimum acceptable self-defense caliber on the market. Most loadings have around half of the muzzle energy of a 9mm round. Generally seen in subcompact firearms (such as Kel-Tec offerings), .380 Auto firearms tend to be very compact.

.32 ACP
Only a few manufacturers offer handguns in this caliber. It is not particularly suitable for use as a self-defense caliber due to its low muzzle velocity and low bullet mass. If using a .32ACP firearm for self-defense, use FMJ rounds since hollow point rounds will neither penetrate sufficient tissue, nor will they expand reliably

.357 SIG
This cartridge is a derivative of the .40 S&W round in an attempt to replicate the power of the .357 Magnum cartridge in a pistol round. It is essentially a .40 S&W casing necked down to accept 9mm bullets (although the bullet styles and weight vary somewhat from actual 9mm rounds). It has more muzzle velocity and energy than the three major calibers in my previous post, and considerable recoil. Availability of the round is sketchy at times and it is generally more expensive than any of the three major pistol rounds.

.45GAP
This round was developed by Glock in the 1990s as a way to reduce the overall length of the .45ACP round while attempting to retain all of its power by using more potent gunpowder. Its length is similar to that of 9mm, so the grip profile of double-stack pistols chambering it are easier on the hands (grasp a Glock 21 and you'll begin to realize the initial interest in the cartridge). The .45GAP came somewhat short of its goals and is not very popular in the marketplace. Ammunition availability is spotty at best, and its lack of popularity makes it even more expensive than .45ACP. Recoil tends to be a bit snappier than .45ACP.

10mm
The parent cartridge for .40S&W, 10mm was originally developed by the FBI in the 1980s. It is generally considered the most powerful non-proprietary pistol cartridge on the market (ie, .50AE is more powerful, but only the Desert Eagle chambers it as far as I know), but it only has a niche following and only a handful of pistols chambering it are in production. It is very difficult to locate and probably the most expensive cartridge in the list. Recoil tends to be severe in smaller pistols.

 

[Maxpower]

Excellent summary

 

[idleprocess]

He began to tell me about the guns, the weight of the bullets (I'm sure y'all don't call them bullets) and velocity. The whole velocity thing was so interesting/

The wounding potential of a small, fast projectile like a bullet has a loose correlation to its kinetic energy. The more kinetic energy it has, the more energy it can impart on its target, the more damage it might do.

Kinetic energy of a projectile is equal to its half of its mass multiplied by the square of it's velocity, or m/2 * v^2. In theory, trading one unit of mass for one unit of velocity is very "profitable" since it's a net gain in kinetic energy. In practice, it's more complicated than that since the energy has to be imparted on the target in a useful fashion rather than drill a neat hole through them or fail to damage tissue in a fashion that incapacitates.

He said the velocity of a 9mm is fast thus able to cut through your target (victim) quickly. He said it was not uncommon to hear a story about a "target" being shot several times and still not down.
...
So I asked then why would someone use a 9mm vs. a .45 if the goal is personal protection and the 9mm might not do the job?
...
...I don't want my target still standing when I hit with a 9mm. I don't want any second guessing if it's between me and someone who is threatening my life.

I'm afraid that you ran into a caliber enthusiast that's either ignorant of, or in denial about the reality of various handgun rounds. Relatively slight people have been riddled with .45ACP rounds and lived to talk about it while big, tough, angry guys have been killed by a single poorly-placed .32ACP round. It's a total crap shoot when a person is shot - placement and caliber are but two of many variables on whether the person lives, is merely incapacitated, or dies within seconds.

He explained how a .45 has a slower velocity therefore picking up energy as it travels and making a more fatal impact.

That's laughably wrong. A ballistic projectile traveling through the air at near-supersonic speeds will do nothing but rapidly decelerate once it leaves the barrel, losing energy, lessening its potential to wound, incapacitate, or kill. A .45ACP round has more energy than a 9mm round because it has roughly double the mass and is only marginally slower.

Whether it's more fatal is the subject of intense debate, but I'll again reiterate that lab results and thousands of encounters show that .45ACP isn't necessarily more fatal than 9mm when quality rounds are used.

 

[Phoebe Ann]

Thank you all for the advice and comments. I've learned so much on this site.

idleprocess - wow, that's some great information you posted. Thanks! I'm sure I twisted "the gun counter" guy's words to the max. I thought a clip went into a gun and he said no, that's something I'd wear in my hair. But I'm learning!

Thanks again y'all.

 

[tex45acp]

Phoebe Ann,

Since you have not spoken of your gun shooting experience, let me also say that any caliber in a gun, that you don't feel comfortable shooting, because of the way it feels in your hand, might as well be a brick. Whatever caliber you choose, try out as many styles, brands and sizes as you can before you purchase one. There are quite a few guns out there that make great weapons for those having smaller hands and possibly weaker upper body strength.
When I train a person, male or female, to shoot a firearm their first time, I break out my .22 semi-auto, to teach sight alignment and get them comfortable with the sound and muzzle blast of the gun. I then work my way up to their chosen caliber. I hate it when someone hands a heavy recoiling/caliber gun to someone just getting started in the sport of shooting and ruins that person before they can experience the enjoyment of shooting the "right" weapon.

Good Luck on your choice Phoebe (Annie Oakley) Ann.

tex45acp

 

[usmcpmi]

Phoebe Ann, First, Welcome! I've had some experiance with both men and women on the range. IMHO.... women are better shooters because they 1. Have fewer BAD habits when it comes to shooting. 2. No EGO to deal with... 3. They LISTEN better. Other than that, men and women can both be taught to shoot well. Wait... re-read that last... TAUGHT to shoot well. Self instruction is never as good as learning from someone who knows what they are doing. For self defense, the caliber is not as important as shot placement. Shot placement is achieved by practice. I suggest you shoot as many handguns as possable before purchase. I shoot a Colt .45, because I like it and I shoot it...OK... My wife, although she can and does shoot the .45, Likes the 9mm and shoots it well. She has been taught to shoot it well. If you are going to carry, be comfortable and confident with the weapon. Then Practice,practice,practice. Contact the TGT bullseye leader in the HOU area and join their team. They should be able to help. Good luck with your search! MG

 

[kingofwylietx]

I would not worry about the caliber if you are looking at anything .38 or larger. There is an ongoing caliber war, for the obvious reason that nobody can conclusively produce a winning argument that will sway another's personal preferences. If you are looking at 9mm, .40, or .45, then you are in the popular defense catagory. I would not jump right in on a .45, because just like Tex said, it's best to start smaller and then work to what is comfortable for you to shoot. Don't worry about having the biggest bullet. Ideally, you will have the biggest bullet that you can shoot comfortably & controlled.

My wife likes the Taurus Millenium because it's pink. They are only available at Gander Mountain.

Try to find a place that rents pistols if you want to shoot a few different ones. When shopping, handle a lot of guns that are in the size (not caliber, but physical size) you think will be most comfortable. Ignore any jerk behind the counter that tries to sell you what he wants to sell you, this is a personal choice that boils down to ergonomics and comfort - yours, not what someone wants to sell you. Don't be afraid to attend a meet & greet with the people from this forum, they'll surely let you test fire some of their guns.