9mm Carbine Rifle thoughts...

[benenglish]

Put the magazine in the grip just like the pistol it pairs to.

Hmm. Good thought. That drastically narrows the field, though. The ones that have the magazine either in the grip or behind it for maximum compactness are:

• Roni conversion (Are they still in business?),
  
• MechTech conversion,
• Beretta CX-4,
• Hi-Point Carbine,
• Kel-Tec Sub-2000,
• Tavor Bullpup, and
  
• Calico Carbine (Definitely no longer made.).

Can anybody think of others that fit this description?

 

[TheDan]

Can anybody think of others that fit this description?

The Uzi and MAC carbines. TP9 carbine. That's about all I can think of...
There's also the rare 9mm AUG, but I think if you go bullpup you might as well go back to a rifle cartridge.

BTW, I have a Sub2k. I like it a lot, but it'd be nice if it just had a better build quality.

 

[TheDan]

I have nothing Glock in the inventory, but I do kinda want to build a Polymer80 frame just for a MechTech.

 

[diesel1959]

I would eliminate the Sig MPX and CZ Scorpion because the magazine is housed in front of the grip. One of the great things about pistol caliber carbines is how compact they are, but putting the magazine well in front of the grip needlessly makes it larger. Put the magazine in the grip just like the pistol it pairs to.

Interesting viewpoint; however, if that was a consideration that bothered me, I'd never use an AR or AK. I guess of LOT of folks are just used to having the mags in front of the trigger group. It you're looking at minimal overall length, then you're big into bullpups and such . . . and I'm just not in love with any bullpup I've ever seen.

What I don't like about the UZIs and the Steyr subguns is that the grip angle is driven by the required magazine angle . . . and that might not equate to comfort for the shooter's wrist. I find the UZIs to be uncomfortable where an MP5/HK94 are perfect.

 

[CyberWolf]

I would eliminate the Sig MPX and CZ Scorpion because the magazine is housed in front of the grip. One of the great things about pistol caliber carbines is how compact they are, but putting the magazine well in front of the grip needlessly makes it larger. Put the magazine in the grip just like the pistol it pairs to.

Not sure that definitive of a statement can be made in this instance, though to be sure, I haven't done an actual side-by-side comparison.

My MPX in it's shorter config is friggin tiny, and looks to be very similar in size to a S2K, Roni, Ruger PCC (with receiver/bbl separated), etc...

The blackouts are just a tiny bit bigger (likely as small or smaller than some of the listed PCC options), but that one is much more expensive to run....

Where you really see an issue related to mag placement is with some of the more restrictive State-level regs. I'll do everyone a favor and avoid poisoning this thread with a direct link to the CA DOJ website, but those interested in an example can refer to "CA Penal Code § 30515 (2017) (a)(4)(d)"


Also something to consider on the topic of compact platforms (may or may not be germane to this conversation), braced pistols are generally more flexible than SBRs both from a CCW perspective as well as transportability (e.g. - no 5320.20 required for interstate transport); only thing you really lose is option for a vfg.

 

[CyberWolf]

Can anybody think of others that fit this description?

Only other two (not yet mentioned) I can think of are:

1. Kriss Vector (sort of)
2. Suarez Glock PDW

 

[benenglish]

The Uzi and MAC carbines.

Oh, yeah. And the BT or Steyr, if you can find a Steyr and if the BT was ever imported. Never have seen either in the flesh.

Where you really see an issue related to mag placement is with some of the more restrictive State-level regs. I'll do everyone a favor and avoid poisoning this thread with a direct link to the CA DOJ website,...

The competitive shooters for things like IHMSA and ISSF (especially RF pistol) had to be really proactive to get their pistols added to the exceptions list. I just wonder how many gun crimes would have been prevented if the legislature had succeeded in banning 5-shot Olympic .22 pistols.

 

[TheDan]

Roni conversion (Are they still in business?)

CAA bought them.

Interesting viewpoint; however, if that was a consideration that bothered me, I'd never use an AR or AK.

The way I look at it if I'm going to have a magazine using space outside the grip, then I might as well have a larger cartridge. A dedicated 9mm AR is like what, an inch shorter than a .300blk/5.56 AR? No thanks...

Oh, yeah. And the BT or Steyr, if you can find a Steyr and if the BT was ever imported. Never have seen either in the flesh.

I know the pistol versions have been imported. Wouldn't be hard to add the stock and SBR, or perhaps get a 16" barrel. They are silly expensive, tho.

Also something to consider on the topic of compact platforms (may or may not be germane to this conversation), braced pistols are generally more flexible than SBRs both from a CCW perspective as well as transportability

Yeah, I kinda want a macaroni

 

[Big Green]

Help me out on the legal side of the MechTec.
If you swap the Glock lower into the carbine upper it is “legal” correct?
But once converted you can’t swap back right?
Legal to go pistol->rifle but never rifle->pistol correct?

Didn’t that change a few years ago? Thought you could go back and forth now as long as it started from a rifle.

 

[benenglish]

Didn’t that change a few years ago?

It changed a number of years ago, as was noted in the post immediately after Moonpie's.

However, you've got it exactly backwards. This...

Thought you could go back and forth now as long as it started from a rifle.

...isn't the case. After the Thompson/Center case was resolved, the practical reality is that you can go back and forth as long as it started from a pistol.

That's an oversimplification, though. It would be a good idea to read the link contained in post #51.

 

[Big Green]

It changed a number of years ago, as was noted in the post immediately after Moonpie's.

However, you've got it exactly backwards. This......isn't the case. After the Thompson/Center case was resolved, the practical reality is that you can go back and forth as long as it started from a pistol.

That's an oversimplification, though. It would be a good idea to read the link contained in post #51.

And that’s what’s I get for posting at the crack of dawn. It was at bottom page for me and I missed the other replies.

I went with a SBR years to avoid the whole issue.

 

[benenglish]

I went with a SBR years to avoid the whole issue.

For my first SBR, one that fits into a belt holster to boot, I'm thinking about this:

Explanation here.

Chassis for sale at $325 here and elsewhere. I know there's a holster for that rig (The MAC featured it in a video recently) but I can't find it for sale anywhere.

 

[TheDan]

For my first SBR, one that fits into a belt holster to boot, I'm thinking about this:

View attachment 152092

Explanation here.

Chassis for sale at $325 here and elsewhere. I know there's a holster for that rig (The MAC featured it in a video recently) but I can't find it for sale anywhere.

I freak'n love that concept and have thought about building one myself. Only problem is, where do you have enough space on a polymer frame to do the required engraving?

 

[CyberWolf]

For my first SBR, one that fits into a belt holster to boot, I'm thinking about this:

View attachment 152092

Explanation here.

Chassis for sale at $325 here and elsewhere. I know there's a holster for that rig (The MAC featured it in a video recently) but I can't find it for sale anywhere.

That's cool, haven't seen those before...

Question I would have is related to impact on carry/reaction-time considerations...

My current understanding of this (and I could be wrong or have missed something), is that by converting to an SBR, you lose:

1. The ability to carry 'concealed' (though that in itself is a 'loaded' term), as I don't believe that rifles/sbr's are covered under most (if any) state ccw laws...

2. Ability to carry while in-vehicle in Condition 1. I'm a little bit fuzzier on this one since it's been a long time since looking into, but if I recall correctly, this restriction (which may not exist in all States) was tied more to anti-poaching/game laws than ccw or the like...This is something I'll need to do more research on when time permits...

 

[benenglish]

I freak'n love that concept and have thought about building one myself. Only problem is, where do you have enough space on a polymer frame to do the required engraving?

The engraving isn't on the polymer. It's on that trigger group/frame thingie that fits in the middle of the "chassis". The chassis is non-serialized.

Of course, that makes the problem worse. How do you engrave on the thing that is legally the firearm, i.e. this:

?

Picture credit: cbhausen via ingunowners.com

 

[benenglish]

Question...

I never thought about those things since I was only considering it as a range toy. Good questions, though; I don't know the answer to either.

 

[CyberWolf]

For my first SBR, one that fits into a belt holster to boot.....

Speaking of holsters and boots, saw a pic a while back (thought had saved it but can't find it now), where someone converted an old cowboy boot into a belt holster for an MPX pistol

On my list of things to try just because why not?

 

[CyberWolf]

Of course, that makes the problem worse. How do you engrave on the thing that is legally the firearm...

Pick the least wear-prone part with any surface area and find someone with a Fiber Laser?

That would be my guess...

 

[CyberWolf]

I never thought about those things since I was only considering it as a range toy. Good questions, though; I don't know the answer to either.

Those were the conditions last time I checked into it, but it's been a while and figured was possible laws/regs had changed since then...


ETA: was thinking a bit more on this, and there's almost guaranteed to be material variances state-to-state....will make a note to followup after having a chance to recheck.

 

[Moonpie]

Here's mine.