A REAL look at Gun Free Zones

Shorts

TGT Addict
TGT Supporter
Mar 28, 2008
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Texas
Kudos for finally running a realistic story about gun free zones


Video in link - watch it!
When Seconds Count: Stopping Active Killers - Cincinnati breaking news, weather radar, traffic from 9News | Channel 9 WCPO.com


There have been so many school shootings over the last 40 years that researchers have been able to develop a profile of the typical mass murderer.
They're called "active shooters" or "active killers" and their crimes play out in a matter of minutes.

After the Columbine High School massacre in 1999, police changed their tactics.
The two student gunmen killed 15 people and themselves before the SWAT team was in position.
Commanders realized that it simply takes too long to assemble a tactical team in time to stop an active killer.

The new tactics developed in response to Columbine involved creating an ad-hoc tactical team using the first four or five patrol officers on the scene.
They would enter the shooting scene in a diamond formation with guns pointing in all directions.
This technique was employed by police departments around the country.

Then 32 people were killed by a lone gunman at Virginia Tech in April 2007.
Seung Hui Cho shot 47 people, 30 fatally, in the university's Norris Hall in just 11 minutes.
That means every minute he killed more than three people and shot a total of four.
Once again, the gunman continued shooting until a four-officer team made entry and then he killed himself.

Law enforcement reviewed its tactics.
Based on the Virginia Tech data, experts determined the first officer on scene should make entry immediately with an aggressive attack on the shooter.
Every minute the officer waits for back-up, another three or more people could die.
In other words, while it was once considered suicide for a lone officer to take on an active killer, it is now considered statistical homicide for him not to do so.

Tactical Defense Institute in Adams County, Ohio developed one of the first "single officer response" programs in the nation.
TDI was teaching the tactic even before Virginia Tech. Now the National School Resource Officer Organization (NSRO) is using TDI instructors to teach school resource officers how to confront a gunman immediately.
Locally, all Blue Ash police officers are trained in these new tactics in large part because their chief, Col. Chris Wallace, is also a TDI instructor.

The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks.
In most states, concealed handguns are prohibited at schools and on college campuses even for those with permits.
Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting firearms on the premises.
Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.

The psychological profile of a mass murderer indicates he is looking to inflict the most casualties as quickly as possible.
Also, the data show most active killers have no intention of surviving the event.
They may select schools and shopping malls because of the large number of defenseless victims and the virtual guarantee no on the scene one is armed.
As soon as they're confronted by any armed resistance, the shooters typically turn the gun on themselves.
Copyright 2008 The E.W. Scripps Co. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
 

Shorts

TGT Addict
TGT Supporter
Mar 28, 2008
4,594
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Texas
I think the only thing I see is setting up a hint of power play from LE. I'm glad they have reevaluated their procedures to update tactics. But I cringe at the thought of them down the road saying something to the effect of "well we've got it all handled now, we're updated, so now there's really no reason for concealed carry in these 'gun free zones'".


Like I said, that's the only angle I can see develop but aside from that everything was presented well. What I would love to see is an acknowledgment of CCWers by LE and how they could bridge this gap between the criminal starting an attack and LE arriving on scene. But, that's a different story and there's a whole lot of worms in that can!
 

Texan2

TGT Addict
Nov 8, 2008
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South of San Antonio
I think the only thing I see is setting up a hint of power play from LE. I'm glad they have reevaluated their procedures to update tactics. But I cringe at the thought of them down the road saying something to the effect of "well we've got it all handled now, we're updated, so now there's really no reason for concealed carry in these 'gun free zones'".


Like I said, that's the only angle I can see develop but aside from that everything was presented well. What I would love to see is an acknowledgment of CCWers by LE and how they could bridge this gap between the criminal starting an attack and LE arriving on scene. But, that's a different story and there's a whole lot of worms in that can!
Power play from LE? Most LE I know would love for EVERYONE to have a gun on them. Crime would drop dramatically! Officers enjoy dealing with those that have a CHL, as we know they are law abiding ang very easy to work with....I think you have the wrong impression of LE...
 

Texan2

TGT Addict
Nov 8, 2008
7,947
36
South of San Antonio
I think the only thing I see is setting up a hint of power play from LE. I'm glad they have reevaluated their procedures to update tactics. But I cringe at the thought of them down the road saying something to the effect of "well we've got it all handled now, we're updated, so now there's really no reason for concealed carry in these 'gun free zones'".


Like I said, that's the only angle I can see develop but aside from that everything was presented well. What I would love to see is an acknowledgment of CCWers by LE and how they could bridge this gap between the criminal starting an attack and LE arriving on scene. But, that's a different story and there's a whole lot of worms in that can!
LE knows that they cannot be everywhere and first and foremost, it is the CITIZENS duty to be responsible for their own safety...if that means everyone carry a weapon, so be it.....criminals love unarmed victims.
 

Shorts

TGT Addict
TGT Supporter
Mar 28, 2008
4,594
38
Texas
Power play from LE? Most LE I know would love for EVERYONE to have a gun on them. Crime would drop dramatically! Officers enjoy dealing with those that have a CHL, as we know they are law abiding ang very easy to work with....I think you have the wrong impression of LE...

I hope I do. And I don't mean to imply that I don't like law enforcement folks cause its actually just the opposite. Here in Texas we grew up with the Troopers and the Texas Rangers and I have always thought those folks iconic. Overall, being in Texas, folks are independent and take care of their own. And I love it. Besides, folks from other states don't want me and I have no where else to go, they say I'm arrogant


I think I'm disillusioned lately with the controversial actions of some LEOs and agencies out on the east coast that I'm wondering what in the world is going on??? Off the top of my head the incidents were: the forced entry in MD on a mayor's house, the arrests of OC citizens in VA and most recently the PA soccer mom packing heat happenings in PA. Its actions like that make me pause.

Take a look at this video of an OC debate with Mrs Hain (the PA soccer mom).

SFN on Lynn Doyle

I realize OC and CC are two different things but what I find concerning is the reaction of the police and the folks in opposition in general. The discussion vears back and forth between carrying a gun in general vs carry OC. Many of the arguments thrown against Mrs Hain are in regards to carrying a gun in general. They contest the safety of those around her. They contest her training, her judgement and her abilities. Its bothersome that the Detective there in the video feed regards gun carriers as terrible as he does. That's surely not how all LE thinks right? (I'm begging for a bit of assurance for myself too;)).

I would imagine that every CCWer has considered the actual procedure in case they ever did fire their weapon in SD. I would imagine every CCWer has gotten some extra training because they want to be proficient. I wuld imagine that CCWers have seriously taken to heart the ramifications of every aspect of carrying. (and if anyone here hasn't, you should!!)

I guess its just a big blow to hear such garbage from the very folks that we as CCers or Ocers, in a way, work in tandem with. I always thought it was the good guys versus the bad guys. Then to be talked about like you're a bad guy, well, its no good. :(


LE knows that they cannot be everywhere and first and foremost, it is the CITIZENS duty to be responsible for their own safety...if that means everyone carry a weapon, so be it.....criminals love unarmed victims.
Power play from LE? Most LE I know would love for EVERYONE to have a gun on them. Crime would drop dramatically! Officers enjoy dealing with those that have a CHL, as we know they are law abiding ang very easy to work with....I think you have the wrong impression of LE...
This is refreshing to hear. Thanks.


My reference to "power play" was motivated by a reply in another forum I read. The poster mentioned "unionize cops" and "job security". I'm pretty sure that wasn't very nice but it made a little sense on why that detective was so protective of taking care of the crime without any civilian interference (...so that there's not "confusion" on who the bad guy is)
 

djspump2003

Active Member
Oct 19, 2008
267
18
Austin
I agree with Shorts on this one. However, ALL of the LEOs I have met around Austin, whether a Reservist like myself or when my car was stolen, were for concealed carry. Unfortunately, those aren't the guys that make policy. I have nothing against LEOs in the central Texas area because I have had no bad experiences with them the times I have been stopped. They are typically good to make fun of at the range b/c they are often poor shots when you get out past 7 yards.

Back on topic - if a CHL holder had been armed in a building during any of the school shootings that person could have inarguably stopped the murderer. If you read the book, On Combat - Dave Grossman, the research has been done on all of these events. The individuals that commit these atrocities are spineless cowards and are only empowered b/c they have a weapon and victims do not. EVERYTIME the murderer has been confronted by an armed defender they have been stopped. EVERYTIME. The main stream media doesn't report it because it doesn't fit their agenda which stands as: guns are bad, they kill people, if there weren't guns in the world no one would die or be murdered - basically guns are the problem.
:banghead: We all know that guns happen to be a very good solution to most problems when employed properly.
 

Texas1911

TGT Addict
May 29, 2017
10,623
38
Austin, TX
EVERYTIME the murderer has been confronted by an armed defender they have been stopped. EVERYTIME. The main stream media doesn't report it because it doesn't fit their agenda which stands as: guns are bad, they kill people, if there weren't guns in the world no one would die or be murdered - basically guns are the problem.
Not true, there have been instances of CHL holders attempting to stop someone that is armed and being one of the victims. One was a guy that was assaulting a courthouse with a rifle in Tyler, TX, a CHL holder pulled on him and was killed. The guy was later shot by Police after a chase.

The obvious result however is that it allowed police additional time to respond, and distracted the guy from killing unarmed people. He saved probably 2, 3, or more lives.
 

DrBart2

Active Member
Mar 10, 2008
469
16
Burleson
Not true, there have been instances of CHL holders attempting to stop someone that is armed and being one of the victims. One was a guy that was assaulting a courthouse with a rifle in Tyler, TX, a CHL holder pulled on him and was killed. The guy was later shot by Police after a chase.

The obvious result however is that it allowed police additional time to respond, and distracted the guy from killing unarmed people. He saved probably 2, 3, or more lives.

I remember that incident. The Tyler press even said that it was the attack of the CHL holder that stopped the BG's attack and cause him to retreat. I read that it was said by all those present that the CHL holders involvement resulted in less deaths over all. Unfortunately, the CHL holder did not survive his act of valor.:(
 

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