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A Very Exciting Development. Long thread warning, but definitely worth the read!

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  • 57K

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    A funny thing happened on Sunday. With the spring rains, my wireless internet quits working about as often as satellite TV did before I got rid of it.

    Now, for those who may have thought that I’m in the paid service of Western Powder Co., and of course, I’m not, but this you’ll appreciate. The thing that led me to my discovery of first, Ramshot powders was that I had been using a lot of Vihta Vouri powders previously. By the time Ramshot came on the scene, the V-V powders were expensive enough that I had to question my own reason in using them. It didn’t hurt that the first Ramshot ballistician informed me that Silhouette was the same powder previously sold as Winchester Action Pistol, or WAP. He was also the first to tell me that the OEM powder that FNH bought from P.B. Clermont in Belgium was introduced in the US as Ramshot True Blue. Those of you who know my posts probably know I have a thing about the pressure stability of the powders I use, and few cartridges present problems in pressure stability quite like the 5.7 X 28mm which is what FNH used in it originally, and may still.

    Okay, enough of the background stuff. What I’m getting at here is that whenever any new powder comes on the market that might have application in one of the calibers I load. If it’s a handgun powder with good potential pressure stability, I check it out. Many of you now know that both Silhouette and True Blue are used in another potentially problematic cartridge used in IPSC competition, 9mm MAJOR along with V-V 3N37, N350 while HS-6 is still a mainstay and lately, AutoComp and CFE Pistol have started seeing use. But, there is one powder that was in common use where many long for its return where distributor issues had been problematic in the US for NobelSport/Vectan powders and SP2 had a large following in IPSC. Recently there was a post where I mentioned that Vectan powders are available again. Graf & Sons are the exclusive distributors, but somehow, SP2, SP3 and SP8 are no longer on the program. SP8 was a great all-around powder somewhat similar to True Blue and probably more like V-V N340. The numbers were a bit confusing because SP3 was actually a magnum handgun propellant while SP2 (Practical) was their comp. powder. Interesting enough, Graf’s was probably the last source for Vectan powders before importation ceased and at the very end, they were selling off 8# canisters, IIRC, in the $60 vicinity. It’s unfortunate that I don’t have any of it stored today, but my main interest was always in SP2. I used it in 9 X 19mm up to and including +P, .40 S&W and even my experimental .357 Short Magnums that I mention from time to time. Although I was excited to see the recent return of Vectan powders, I was disappointed that there was no return of SP2 in particular. Well, before Sunday, anyway.

    Call me crazy, but feel free to check for yourself because while I was without the wireless, I thought I’d investigate the Vectan line. This is where it does get crazy! Looking at the burn rates for the powder line, I thought Ba 7 ½ might have some potential in the event I run out of a current powder I use. In another post I mentioned that some of Vihta Vouri’s pistol powders are fine-cut extruded/stick powders as are Vectan’s Ba series. The reason I said some of V-V powders is because these powders are SINGLE-BASED just as extruded rifle propellants mostly are. 3N37 and 3N38 are fine cut extruded, but I can’t say for sure if they are truly single-based. V-V has always stated, starting with 3N37 and it originally being a powder used for Lapua .22 LR Match Ammo, that it was not truly part of the N series pistol powders (same with 3N38) that are single-based, Nitrocellulose with no Nitroglycerin added. One reason they are very pressure stable. The thing is, Ba 7 ½ is but one of 3 new Vectan powders, and it’s gonna get even more mysterious at this point and I can’t claim to have the answers. I might know some of the facts involved and those I’ll present.

    So, I say, okay, this 7 ½ stuff looks pretty decent and then I start digging the various burn rate charts out that I have on my computer, and Vectan’s is given in their downloadable data, so you will definitely want to do that. I found Vectan’s ratings fairly accurate for the most part and none of us have ever likely run into a perfect burn rate chart, but they do help and I’ll explain how it definitely helped this time. I looked at powders comparable to Ba 7 ½, according to Vectan and the 3 closest are AA#7, SR 4756 and N350. And we know the unfortunate circumstance that 4756 is being discontinued by Hodgdon. They can blame it on IMR if they want to, but they own IMR. Suffice it to say, I’m not much of a Hodgdon fan and never have been. I trust some of their handgun load data about as far as I can throw an elephant and leave it at that. “No Wimps Please.” Ring a bell for you older hands? Anyway, at this point I’m thinking that NobelSport dropped their 3 spherical, double-based powders for 3 single-based, fine cut extruded.

    I start making harder comparisons. I look at performance by chargeweight in several calibers starting with 9 X 19mm and see Vectan’s claim that while it is slower burning, it will require lower charges than my beloved Silhouette where for 124 gr. +P JHP loads, it has no peer with the possibility of 2 V-V powders. Now the clouds will start clearing up. I pull up the most recent load guide from Lapua (Vihta Vouri) and start seeing a number of similarities to N350. Here’s one place I’ll try to add clarity. One thing being as many of you know, there are a great number of powder manufacturers in Europe. I don’t know of one of them that isn’t owned by one of the 2 largest conglomerates and I believe I read that SNPE Group (NobelSport/Vectan) is owned by the same group as Lapua Oy (Vihta Vouri). Also, not long ago there was a labor strike at the plant in Finland. If anyone wants to dig farther, or if I’m missing something, pile on! As I said, IIRC. If that’s not the case with them being owned by one single conglomerate, things will be even more confusing. Why? Because the closer I looked, the more coincidence I found. First in 9mm, so I go to .40 S&W. Same thing, then I go to .357 Magnum, 10mm, etc., etc. Vectan shows that Ba 7 ½ uses the same exact charge-weights as V-V N350, and it gets better! Velocities are identical!!! It’s as though Vectan copied the latest V-V data and reprinted it.

    I saw my shooting partner briefly yesterday when he stopped by on his way to work. Although he wasn’t quite in the same state of amazement, he was intrigued nonetheless and I bet he’s already downloaded the Vectan data by now.

    We had a bit of a break with the weather yesterday, but this morning when I start work, no internet again. So, I thought I’d look at the 2 Ba powders I had pretty much neglected in my excitement over 7 ½. Just so you’ll know, checking for availability at Graf’s was one of the first things I did. Doesn’t matter who makes what or where; even the Coyote’s Acme powder from the Roadrunner cartoons, when a handgun powder is available, it’s not for long. Ba 7 ½ is out of stock The numbering system for these powders is also different and in reverse with Ba 10 being the Fastest and 6 ½ being the Slowest. 9 ½ & 6 ½ are the other 2 other new powders in the Ba line. Let’s look at 9 ½! Right off the bat I see that Vectan shows it in the same group as one of the most popular .45 ACP Comp. powders: V-V N320 and it just keeps getting better and better. Where the same bullet description was used, the 9 ½ data looks like it also came from the V-V data. Again, feel free to check me on this because while V-V powders are running around $37 at Graf’s, these Vectan Ba’s are selling for $27, for now, anyway.

    Rather than drag it out; yes, 6 ½ shows identical data as N110 where the same bullets are listed. That’s one magnum pistol powder I’ve always wanted to try but didn’t simply because of price. So you tell me, is it a case of Vectan just figuring out the chemical formula of these V-V powders? Even if they did it would still be a matter of patent infringement unless there was no patent given. Not likely, IMO. Or, maybe during that strike at the Lapua plant in Finland the chemistry was made available to a sister company. You’re guess is as good as mine ‘cause I’ve presented all of the facts I know. BTW, I’m only going to post this thread on my 2 primary forums. Even then I suspect this will spread like wildfire and different from when I started preaching about a new powder company in the early part of this century/millennium! In other words, you heard it first from 57K! You're:welcome:
     
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    Texasjack

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    TL;DR version: He likes Vectan (Nobel Sport) powders.

    I don't know why he doesn't like Hodgdon. I like their powders just fine.

    I'm also not sure what he means by "pressure stability".
     

    Younggun

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    I have no idea what he's talking about because I don't know what it means to load rounds with my own hands.
     

    57K

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    I have no idea what he's talking about because I don't know what it means to load rounds with my own hands.

    One things for sure, you damn sure know how to vote demo-commie with them, don't you?

    As to the Hodgdon thing, some of you may not have been doing this long enough to remember their add campaign, "No Wimps Please," where they raved about being able to push a Hornady 125 gr. .357" XTP to 1800 FPS or better with H110. You had to read the fine print to see that the velocity was recorded from a 10" barrel! And if you've been using HS-6 for any length of time you'd know that data has been continually downrated. That in itself isn't news, but few powders/data have been downrated as much. Meanwhile, it remains to be a mainstay for IPSC shooters for loading 9mm MAJOR. I don't, but I do appreciate honesty in data from those I buy powder from. And, ultimately, lawyered-down data can be as dangerous as data on the edge of Max., where there will always be those who ASSume that listed Max. Charges in Data aren't really the Max. at all.

    I have used HS-6 for years, and now better children created from it like Silhouette. My SP gave me a pound of Varget for load development with my new 7mm-08, but once it's gone it will not be replaced, or maybe given to someone else before then.

    If you want to post just to be a smartass, go right ahead because those that know what I'm talking about already know you're a dumbass~! Vectan powders Identical to N320, N350 and N110 for $10 less per #. Excuse me, that would be $11/# because the Vectan powders come in 1.1# containers.

    N320 is probably the highest regarded powder in existence for .45 ACP Comp loads. The same powder for $11 less? N110/Ba 6 1/2 is at least equal if not superior to H110/W296 and it doesn't require the use of a magnum primer. Meaningless points to some of you maybe.

    Vaquero, you do know that TiteGroup is one of the hottest burning propellants you can buy/use, don't you? Then there are those who load warm with it in high pressure cartridges where it's proven to have pressure variations/spikes when loaded near top-end.

    'Course, some of you have never made it past Unique, so as Donnie Brasco would say. "Forgetaboutit!"
     
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    Vaquero

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    Vaquero, you do know that TiteGroup is one of the hottest burning propellants you can buy/use, don't you? Then there are those who load warm with it in high pressure cartridges where it's proven to have pressure variations/spikes whne loaded near top-end.

    Yes, it's hot. I keep my loads at the bottom end of the chart. Just enough "oomph" to cycle an autoloader.
    The revolver/lever action loads are a bit below listed minimum. My days of pushing the maximum loads ended in the mid '80s. I watch carefully for double charges and dump and recharge any case that even might be.
    I get a lot of ammo out of a pound of titegroup. It's more about economics than performance for me. I don't compete.
     

    Brains

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    Alright, I'll bite. Put my flame suit on and everything.

    The reason nobody responded right off the bat? When you post, and I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but you're like the hydraulics expert we have here at work. He's a very smart guy, a really nice guy, very personable and likable, and he's literally a walking encyclopedia. He holds more knowledge in his head about hydraulics than anyone I've ever met and he's always eager to share. BUT. You ask him where you want to go for lunch, and it's going to take the next 20 minutes of him explaining how to make a sandwich, and then another 40 minutes on how to build the restaurant who will ultimately make the sandwich. The end result is people avoid him like the plague unless they have a question that absolutely can't be answered another way, and they've budgeted an hour for the 20 seconds of information they actually need.

    Honestly, I found the post very interesting, but didn't feel like there was much I could add to the 'discussion.' The post was more or less a brain dump of that encyclopedic knowledge, so I more or less just read it and filed it away as maybe Vectan was something to check out next time I go looking for powder. I'm not partial to any one powder or brand, I merely load for economy. I do want accuracy and consistency for my efforts, but I just don't see myself as being able to add or detract anything from the thread. Except for now. Probably just derailed this sucker in grand TGT fashion, but we'll see :)
     

    57K

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    Alright, I'll bite. Put my flame suit on and everything.

    The reason nobody responded right off the bat? When you post, and I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but you're like the hydraulics expert we have here at work. He's a very smart guy, a really nice guy, very personable and likable, and he's literally a walking encyclopedia. He holds more knowledge in his head about hydraulics than anyone I've ever met and he's always eager to share. BUT. You ask him where you want to go for lunch, and it's going to take the next 20 minutes of him explaining how to make a sandwich, and then another 40 minutes on how to build the restaurant who will ultimately make the sandwich. The end result is people avoid him like the plague unless they have a question that absolutely can't be answered another way, and they've budgeted an hour for the 20 seconds of information they actually need.

    Honestly, I found the post very interesting, but didn't feel like there was much I could add to the 'discussion.' The post was more or less a brain dump of that encyclopedic knowledge, so I more or less just read it and filed it away as maybe Vectan was something to check out next time I go looking for powder. I'm not partial to any one powder or brand, I merely load for economy. I do want accuracy and consistency for my efforts, but I just don't see myself as being able to add or detract anything from the thread. Except for now. Probably just derailed this sucker in grand TGT fashion, but we'll see :)


    No problem there! No flamesuit req'd. Interesting parallel because I am a designer by profession, and for all engineering disciplines as well as some work done for architects. I know a bit about hydraulics myself and won a national design competition in 1988 for an irrigation system I designed using unique hydraulic techniques.

    Pressure is something I'm well versed in whether it be hydraulic, electrical, mechanical or even sound pressure in which I also have design credentials. Hey, I can even deal with pressure from demo-commies, because long ago I learned to categorize those who are gun owners/shooters/seemingly fewer handloaders, that still don't understand that the second amendment is the only one that truly protects the US Constitution, for those folks, the term is parasite.

    And if you're as opposed to Barry Saetoro the Obamination as some of us are, you ain't seen nothing yet! He's only the warm-up act for Ho-Larry!!!
     
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    Younggun

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    I think it's dangerous for anyone to be able to go out and buy pounds of high explosives and store them in the closet.
     

    57K

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    Vaquero, I've read enough of your posts to believe you know what you're doing. The thing is, and you know this as well as I do, when "which handgun powder" advice is asked for, it's quite evident that very few know what you do about TiteGroup and it doesn't matter if we're talking about 9 X 19mm or .40 S&W where TiteGroup has been involved in more than 1 Ka-Boom. Anyone dispensing that kind of advice is obviously not proficient enough to be dispensing advice in the first place.

    And I aplogize if I mistakenly thought someone doesn't handload. It's just that I only tend to remember those those threads/posts with some degree of intelligence provided.
     
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    benenglish

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    being able to push a Hornady 125 gr. .357" XTP to 1800 FPS or better with H110. You had to read the fine print to see that the velocity was recorded from a 10" barrel!
    IIRC, that was from an unvented test barrel, right? I didn't hold that against them too much. I guess it's just that I spent so much time shooting silhouette using single shot pistols that a 10", unvented barrel seemed completely normal to me. But I take your point; it's not normal for most folks.

    ... loading 9mm MAJOR.
    I remember Blue Dot and certain U.S. IPSC dignitaries completely losing their shit when it first became possible to make major with a 9mm, using published data. That was funny.

    Charges in Data aren't really the Max. at all.
    Yep, that bugs me. That's why old reloading manuals shouldn't be thrown away, imo.
     

    Vaquero

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    57k,
    Honestly, I first clicked on the OP of this thread with great anticipation.
    Your reloading threads are well written and obviously researched and tested.

    My eyes glazed over pretty quickly and my brain disengaged.
    I suspect that many did likewise. You covered the topic in spades and left no room for discussion.

    ^That explains the initial lack of comments.
     

    57K

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    57k,
    Honestly, I first clicked on the OP of this thread with great anticipation.
    Your reloading threads are well written and obviously researched and tested.

    My eyes glazed over pretty quickly and my brain disengaged.
    I suspect that many did likewise. You covered the topic in spades and left no room for discussion.

    ^That explains the initial lack of comments.


    I have no problem with you, V. For one, my wife was born and raised in Abilene, and 2, I was working for a contracting firm in Abilene whose owner was an industrial engineer by degree & profession before he bought the irrigation co. I started work for 2/86. That system I designed that won me the national prize and a check for $500 which left my Abilene girl a bit more than breathless, was in Abilene at the end of 1986 when I had been on that job less than 9 months. Eventually, the student became the teacher and my former boss ended up with TELSCO Industries (WeatherMatic), and used my design for athletic fields in his pitch to do the irrigation system at the Cotton Bowl in advance of the World Cup soccer championship that followed in the early 90s. But, he also taught me invaluable lessons in things like cost/manhour studies that I made my own later in other fields.

    If you look back at post #2, I asked for someone to corroborate the facts. Pull up Vectan's latest data and compare it to Lapua/Vihta Vouri's latest and you'll see that the data for the same bullets used with Ba 9 1/2, 7 1/2 and 6 1/2 is identical to Vihta Vouri's for N320, N350 and N110.

    That's the point of this thread and Graf & Sons is now the US Distributor for Vectan powders. The V-V powders sell for $37/# while the NobelSport/Vectan's sell for $27 for 1.1# or 500 grams. Thought that might be useful information in the case of Vectan producing 3 new powders that are the mirror image of their V-V counterparts.

    In the past few days, I'll admit that I flamed some demo-commie ass in the political subforum. Now, some diapers didn't get changed and they won't to engage in the Reloading Subforum when one has nothing to do with the other. I don't care if someone has 37 Billion posts, you want to task me here, you better pack a lunch. Not the one you bent over and had packed yesterday!

    Ben, I know your posts as well, and if I didn't engage in one it's probably because you already had things covered. But, one small point, when the 9 x 19mm was first allowed in IPSC Major, the power factor was 175 rather than today's 165. 147 gr. .355 bullets were also relatively new, and the problem was that shooters/reloaders were using insanely fast burning powders because of the powder volume. We both know what happened, and the 9 X 19mm was outlawed in Major Competition. But now at 165, the predominant bullet weight isn't 147 grs., it's 124 grs. with some even using 115 gr. bullets.

    I totally agree with you on data. When I started handloading, first with the .41 Magnum and later the 9 X 19mm, its pressure Max. was 35,700 CUP and how SAAMI arrived at the pressure Max of 38,500 PSI for +P. There is no difference between the 2 and some believe that the exact opposite happened with SAAMI increasing the current pressure Max of 35,000 PSI/33,000 CUP for the 9 X 19mm, and the .40 by 10% for the 9mm where there is no +P for .40 S&W.

    I was early on the .40 bandwagon but haven't used it personally for about 10 years. As I heard it from professionals, it would take 100,000 PSI to blow out the case-head of a 9mm cartridge. So those who did it when IPSC Major was 175 were trying pretty hard to blow themselves up and deserve what they got, IMO.

    I don't have a lot of posts here, but those who know me from others will tell you that I'm a long time advocate of a 9mm round that will equal any .40 S&W so long as one of a very few powders are used. When early 147 gr. LE JHP loads were overpenetrating to the point of striking bystanders, Peter Pi of Cor-Bon tried to tell them why. Instead, the FBI started subscribing to the wisdom, in his own mind, of Dr. Martin Fackler whom told the FBI that a subsonic 147 gr. JHP was the greatest thing since sliced bread, while Cor-Bon tried to convince the shooting public that they needed to be loaded Super-Sonic, above 1080 FPS at sea level to make them expand properly to keep then from overpenetrating. Now, if you did as I did, you still have those early Vihta Vouri Manuals that have also been downrated to conform with SAAMI. Look at the data and confirm for yourself that Ba 6 1/2 loads/N110 are now slightly higher than they are in the V-V load pamplet I consult most, the #2.

    Didn't mean to write a book, but I hoped that someone would investigate because that was SOP in the engineering process that I was bound to almost 30 years ago. $27 vs. $37, well if you don't get it you probably live in the Austin area and still believe that the democratic party still has the common man at heart. I know that there are better minds here than that!

    For the others, keep tasking me. It's like your hero Willie Nelson sang when he could get any air time at all, before Blue Eyes Cryin' in the Rain. "Shotgun Willie sits around in his underwear. Bitin' on a bullet and pullin' out all of his hair." F'in demo-commies!

    :boom:
     
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    Younggun

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    Maybe you would feel better if you quit pulling your hair out. If you are considering biting a bullet maybe you should get some help.....

    These psychological issues explain a lot, bless your heart.
     

    Younggun

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    I've known some very intelligent people with very little common sense......
     

    Texasjack

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    It is easier to obtain American made powders than foreign stuff.

    There isn't a company doing business in the USA that doesn't have a team of lawyers trying to protect them from stupid lawsuits. It's not "lying" to make sure that your load data doesn't put you in court. Companies don't like this one bit better than we do, but it's a reality.

    You want to give away Varget? I'll take it! Good stuff! Clean, consistent; I fail to see anything wrong.

    Your "encyclopedia brain dump" is honestly not helpful. "You may remember when..."? Honestly, most of us don't. We have a limited number of loads and calibers to work with and we focus on that. It comes across as rambling. Give us comparative test data or something tangible that we can comprehend and we'll gladly discuss it. As others pointed out, you left no room - and no points - for discussion.

    As for "demo-commies", I think the only reason they haven't renamed the party is because the actual Communist Party doesn't want people to think they're associated with Obama, Pelosi, Reid, etc. and would probably sue.
     
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