Academy store in Sunset Valley robbed

[Texan2]

A friend lives near there. He didn't hear about it. The pressure is on Sunset Valley PD. You think they would have personell there already. People that bold are deadly, with all those clothes bushes, and kids every where. Let them get outside and leave, and bust them.
Signs of the times are now written on the walls of our stalls.

The pressure is always on the police to supress/prevent crime....but why would you think they would already be there???

They are already spread thin, and it is the busiest shopping day of the year on top of that. Lots of busy stores, lots of traffic to keep an eye on. I dont see why they should already be there???
I take issue with the theory that it is the police's job to take care of us. That is what the anti-gun lobby uses regularly. "Why do you need a gun? We have police for that." But the reality is that the police cant be everywhere and are usually reacting to an act that has already transpired. Not their fault, just the nature of the beast.

Now the alternative to that is to create a police state where there is a cop on every corner and our freedom of movement becomes very restricted and constantly observed. Problem there is that we are used to a less restrictive society (have a constitution) and the costs of that would be monumental.

 

[djspump2003]

You all make some excellent points.

The trouble I have with gun-wielding criminals in the first place is that they violate that rule that we all (I hope) were taught that you NEVER point a gun at something you are not WILLING to destroy. Since they are already violating that cardinal rule, if someone does point a gun at me I firmly believe b/c of what I have been taught all my life (by my dad and the military) that they will shoot me. Why else point the gun at someone?

Even if you are an experienced police officer and have dealt with countless of these situations - you do not know the mind of every single criminal out there and what it takes for this one to pull the trigger. You just can't. Yeah, all the money and products in Academy aren't worth getting someone innocent killed or injured. But do you stop them if they start taking wallets and purses? Where do you draw the line of giving the criminals what they want? Once they have your wallets, they know where you live. What if they want to come over one night?

Can you take the "what if" game too far? If it happened in the past it can happen again right?

 

[Texan2]

You all make some excellent points.

The trouble I have with gun-wielding criminals in the first place is that they violate that rule that we all (I hope) were taught that you NEVER point a gun at something you are not WILLING to destroy. Since they are already violating that cardinal rule, if someone does point a gun at me I firmly believe b/c of what I have been taught all my life (by my dad and the military) that they will shoot me. Why else point the gun at someone?

Even if you are an experienced police officer and have dealt with countless of these situations - you do not know the mind of every single criminal out there and what it takes for this one to pull the trigger. You just can't. Yeah, all the money and products in Academy aren't worth getting someone innocent killed or injured. But do you stop them if they start taking wallets and purses? Where do you draw the line of giving the criminals what they want? Once they have your wallets, they know where you live. What if they want to come over one night?

Can you take the "what if" game too far? If it happened in the past it can happen again right?

Your points are very close to mine. But CHL holders and police would and should respond differently in many cases.
As a police officer confronting someone weilding a gun who is threatening to use it, we have already crossed the point of no return. Maybe an order to drop it, maybe not even that depending on the situation. They have used deadly force and that force will be met with deadly force.
CHL holders need to decide if they are actually in danger and can they articulate that enough to feel comfortable taking action.
Again, no one right answer....

 

[Double Naught Spy]

There is a big difference between the threat of violence and actual violence.

Yes, but we aren't just talking about violence. We are talking about lethal force. An armed gunman comes in and points a gun at a clerk and demands money. At that point, the gunman is threatening a human life and has met all the criteria for being thwarted because he is showing intent, opportunity, and ability to use lethal force on the clerk (as well as endangering customers via his illegal act).

The guys wanted to rob the place, and as you've said, there's a really good chance the complying will result in no harm to innocent people. You have to weigh those odds against the odds of someone innocent being killed if you start a gun battle in Academy.

You didn't take statistics, did you? Just because historically nothing bad happened 87% of the time has no bearing on what is happening in my situation (if I was at Academy). Each of those situations is called a "mutually exclusive event" and as such, what has happened in the past does not affect their outcome. Even if it did, I would not want to rely on just 87% that the robbers aren't going to kill people. If there was an 87% chance I would lose the lottery every time I played, I would play every chance I had because 13% are darned good odds for winning the lottery. If they are good odds for winning the lottery, then they are bad odds for somebody getting killed.

I'm not trying to claim that doing nothing is always the best thing. It's not. I'm just trying to explain that under certain circumstances, drawing your weapon might not be the route that results in the least amount of innocent lives lost. This isn't about protecting the bad guys, it's about protecting the good guys, and I believe that in some cases the best way to protect the good guys, unfortunately, is to give the bad guys what they want.

Then what was the garbage about wondering if there was a CHL holder in Academy who chose NOT to do anything? Once again, who cares? Every person in the store who chose NOT to do anything is in the same boat.

And of course you should not always choose to use lethal force in such situations. I 100% believe in compliance so long as compliance is to a safety and tactical advantage. There may never be an opportunity to produce a gun and fire. There have been lots of situations where off duty cops have found themselves in the middle of robberies and not able to act because doing so would not likely produce beneficial results. Without a reasonable opportunity to fight back, then end up just like every unarmed person in the same situation, surviving at the whims of the robbers.

 

[sv6er]

Yes, but we aren't just talking about violence. We are talking about lethal force. An armed gunman comes in and points a gun at a clerk and demands money. At that point, the gunman is threatening a human life and has met all the criteria for being thwarted because he is showing intent, opportunity, and ability to use lethal force on the clerk (as well as endangering customers via his illegal act).

Lethal force isn't violence? It's kind of like a square and a rectangle. Not all rectangles are square, but all squares are rectangles. Lethal force is violence, but not all violence is lethal. When I say "violence", lethal force definitely qualifies.

I completely agree with you that someone that has chosen to threaten another's life has, as you put, "met all criteria for being thwarted." I've never, at any point, expressed the opinion that he doesn't DESERVE to get shot at. Not once.

You didn't take statistics, did you?

There's no need to be a smart-ass.

Just because historically nothing bad happened 87% of the time has no bearing on what is happening in my situation (if I was at Academy). Each of those situations is called a "mutually exclusive event" and as such, what has happened in the past does not affect their outcome.

I fully understand this. What you don't understand is that it's completely irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

Even if it did, I would not want to rely on just 87% that the robbers aren't going to kill people. If there was an 87% chance I would lose the lottery every time I played, I would play every chance I had because 13% are darned good odds for winning the lottery. If they are good odds for winning the lottery, then they are bad odds for somebody getting killed.

What I'm trying to explain—and what's apparently going over your head—is that the Academy robbery may have presented a situation in which the odds of someone innocent being killed if a lone CHL-holder had reacted WERE HIGHER than letting the robbers go. THAT'S IT. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not saying what anyone should have done. I'm not saying that the bad guys don't deserve to get shot at. I'm not saying that there was or wasn't a CHL-holder in the store.

All I'm saying is that IF there was a CHL holder in the store, and he/she was packing heat but didn't pull his weapon, he/she might have decided that the best way to preserve innocent lives was to let the bad guys have what they want.

Then what was the garbage about wondering if there was a CHL holder in Academy who chose NOT to do anything? Once again, who cares? Every person in the store who chose NOT to do anything is in the same boat.

"Garbage"? LOL. You've got an attitude. Yes, everyone who chose to do nothing is in the same boat. I agree. But this point of yours is, once again, completely irrelevant to my posts.

And of course you should not always choose to use lethal force in such situations. I 100% believe in compliance so long as compliance is to a safety and tactical advantage. There may never be an opportunity to produce a gun and fire. There have been lots of situations where off duty cops have found themselves in the middle of robberies and not able to act because doing so would not likely produce beneficial results. Without a reasonable opportunity to fight back, then end up just like every unarmed person in the same situation, surviving at the whims of the robbers.

Hey! You got it, good job! You get a star for today!

That's all I've been saying all along. Go back and read!

All that other stuff that YOU thought I was insinuating was YOU putting words in my mouth.