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Accidental discharge leads to suspension of another Austin police officer

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  • txinvestigator

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    3 times? There P&Ps need to be reworked. If they are going to have officers press the triggers, then they need a safe place for the muzzle to be placed.
     

    breakingcontact

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    Un-freaking-real.

    So the individual officers are to blame but is that the standard police procedure? To "look away" two seconds then check it again then dry fire it?

    I want to know what kind of mickey mouse games are going on at APD.

    The officers lose a day of pay? So they lose a couple hunded bucks. Wow. Thats it?

    "while it might look like an accident trainers say the officers followed procedure" REALLY except they failed to see a chambered round TWICE.

    TXI is right (see it does happen). The individuals are failing but their supervisors, administration, trainers and policies/procedures or training/doctrine are failing the officers as well.

    Are the officers sergeants and lieutenants held responsible for the actions of their men and women?

    Perhaps they need to be issued clearing rods to run down the barrel to visually confirm for realsies that the chamber is empty? Wonder if their batons would fit?
     
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    Mic

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    Un-freaking-real.

    So the individual officers are to blame but is that the standard police procedure? To "look away" two seconds then check it again then dry fire it?

    I want to know what kind of mickey mouse games are going on at APD.

    The officers lose a day of pay? So they lose a couple hunded bucks. Wow. Thats it?

    "while it might look like an accident trainers say the officers followed procedure" REALLY except they failed to see a chambered round TWICE.

    TXI is right (see it does happen). The individuals are failing but their supervisors, administration, trainers and policies/procedures or training/doctrine are failing the officers as well.

    Are the officers sergeants and lieutenants held responsible for the actions of their men and women?

    Perhaps they need to be issued clearing rods to run down the barrel to visually confirm for realsies that the chamber is empty? Wonder if their batons would fit?

    Come on now. Don't paint all the officers as unprofessional because they have a handful that have done some stupid shit. We all do stupid shit sometimes. How many officers are there in the APD and how many have had NDs? If you took a poll of people on this board, most have had an ND. And not all of us handle our weapons every day. Not saying these folks aren't being dumbasses when they do this, but we all play the part of dumbass sometimes.

    I would get rid of the procedure to discharge the firearm to verify it empty. I'm assuming these are happening at the end of shift. If so, perhaps they could empty the firearm, take it into a safe area like TXI mentioned to perform the trigger press.
     

    Moonpie

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    Gunz are icky.
    I don't get this dumbassery.
    How hard is it to LOOK at the chamber of a Rem 870 or Mossberg 500 type shotgun as you close the slide?
    It ain't like the gun doesn't have a HUGE ejection port on the side of it or anything.
    Can you SEE a big fat shotshell in there Partner?
    Jeebus Christ.
     
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    breakingcontact

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    Come on now. Don't paint all the officers as unprofessional because they have a handful that have done some stupid shit. We all do stupid shit sometimes. How many officers are there in the APD and how many have had NDs? If you took a poll of people on this board, most have had an ND. And not all of us handle our weapons every day. Not saying these folks aren't being dumbasses when they do this, but we all play the part of dumbass sometimes.

    I would get rid of the procedure to discharge the firearm to verify it empty. I'm assuming these are happening at the end of shift. If so, perhaps they could empty the firearm, take it into a safe area like TXI mentioned to perform the trigger press.

    Im not. Increasingly im seeing that when police officers do bonehead stuff, its very often due to being in a jacked up department with poor training, policies, procedures.

    When they go on some cowboy style raid, when they get an MRAP, when they pick military style uniforms: its not the rookie officer who makes those decisions. Its their leadership.

    Same with this decision to clear the gun, then do some mickey mouse 2 second look away then pull the trigger. This policy has failed the individual officers three times now. Yes they failed themselves as well.

    However as a leader, if the people under you keep screwing up the same way. Then YOU are failing in your job as well.

    As far as statistically saying they dont shoot their shotguns off accidentally very often, once is too often.
     

    breakingcontact

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    These are the instances that make the news. How many do not get reported?

    That was my thought too. Dont we all try to cover for ourselves and our buddies at work?

    Im glad its just been in their parking garages from what i can tell.

    As far as "how hard is it" to check if a gun is cleared...well i get that cops work weird hours, get fatigued, work OT, probably cold and dark in the garage and also so they are humans so they get lazy and sloppy doing routine things...so that is when their leaders need to change their policies to account for these things.

    Again, why do officers need to have a round chambered in their shotguns? Pistol of course have it chambered.

    Seriously, if i was in admin at APD id issue brass clearing rods. Also can an Lt or Sgt not direct his guys to a higher standard than the dept policy? Id issue my guys clearing rods.

    Should they have to use clearing rods? No. But apparently they need to.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Some of you need calm down. Your prejudice is showing again. Clearly there is a problem. I imagine it will be addressed pretty quickly.

    We just had a member here with a pages long thread who had an ND. I don't recall the level of outrage for him.

    The level of cop hate here from some of you is just disproportionate.

    I am interested Jon the solutions, the procedures YOU would have for issuing a firearm to an officer coming on duty. Remember, the officer picks up the shotgun at work, he does not take it home. If additional training is part of your plan, Please when that training will take place in relation to the officers work schedule, and how the training will be paid for.
     

    breakingcontact

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    For you little leaguers here on TGT, remember if you question anything about law enforcement agencies or officers, you hate cops.

    Intolerance will not be tolerated!

    My beef isnt with the individuals its with the "systems".

    Ive offered my solutions.

    Brass clearing rod. $20

    Also with a shotgun dont chamber the round unless you need to pull it out of the rack.
     

    Shorts

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    Sgt. Duane Peed leads the Austin's Police Academy's firearm training unit where cadets first learn to check their shotguns each day.

    "The officer is instructed to check the chamber, check the magazine tube, then look away for two seconds and then they check it again," Peed said. "It's a double check and then they dry fire it."


    How about rack twice, or even three times before pulling the trigger?

    The "check" I read in the article isn't clear if it is a visual check or finger check or if they're racking the slide at all.

    CLEAR THE DAMN WEAPON. Cycle the bolt several times. Gives an opportunity for the extractor to eject a round in the chamber. After that, visual check then pull the trigger to drop the hammer.
     

    Anger

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    they're not accidental, they're neglect. Every accident is preventable or so the safety mantra goes. it floored me how many times the word "accident" was used, especially after the range officer explained the double check of the shotgun before pulling the trigger. That's not accidental, it's negligence especially considering they receive monthly training.
     

    Shorts

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    If NDs are taking place in the vehicle when the gun is racked, perhaps there needs to be some kind of deflector or shield welded in place so other equipment isn't getting in the trigger guard. (Why is the safety off?)

    If NDs are taking place when the person has a shotgun in hand, then they are moving too quickly and overlooking what they need to look for. How do you teach attention to detail?
     

    breakingcontact

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    they're not accidental, they're neglect. Every accident is preventable or so the safety mantra goes. it floored me how many times the word "accident" was used, especially after the range officer explained the double check of the shotgun before pulling the trigger. That's not accidental, it's negligence especially considering they receive monthly training.

    I posted this article on reddit.com/r/austin and made sure my title read negligent not accidental. I felt the same way about the story. Its like "whoopsie! Things happen!"
     

    Anger

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    I posted this article on reddit.com/r/austin and made sure my title read negligent not accidental. I felt the same way about the story. Its like "whoopsie! Things happen!"

    In the "real world" these type violations would lead to firing. at a petrochem plant I worked at, walking up or down the stairs without a hand on a handrail or taking steps 2 at a time was grounds for dismissal (firing) after receiving ONE warning.
     

    Moonpie

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    Gunz are icky.
    Never said I dislike cops.
    I dislike people who handle firearms like asshats.
    Keep the Booger Hook Off The Bang Switch! until you KNOW you have cleared the weapon.
    It isn't rocket surgery. Really it isn't.
     

    txinvestigator

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    How about rack twice, or even three times before pulling the trigger?

    The "check" I read in the article isn't clear if it is a visual check or finger check or if they're racking the slide at all.

    CLEAR THE DAMN WEAPON. Cycle the bolt several times. Gives an opportunity for the extractor to eject a round in the chamber. After that, visual check then pull the trigger to drop the hammer.

    My agency "sealed" our shotguns. A little thin zip tie like doodad they place through a hole drill through the forend and attached to the forearm cap. If you racked it to chamber a round a supervisor was supposed to witness you clear it, and then he would reseal it. There was also a report the officer had to file.

    The result was when I picked up a shotgun I could check the tube, but not the chamber without breaking the seal.
     

    breakingcontact

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    My agency "sealed" our shotguns. A little thin zip tie like doodad they place through a hole drill through the forend and attached to the forearm cap. If you racked it to chamber a round a supervisor was supposed to witness you clear it, and then he would reseal it. There was also a report the officer had to file.

    The result was when I picked up a shotgun I could check the tube, but not the chamber without breaking the seal.

    Cool. Forward that to APD so they stop having NDs with their shotguns.
     
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