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Accidental discharge leads to suspension of another Austin police officer

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  • Professor

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    I don't understand this at all. In all my years in law enforcement in two different cities, we never had an ND of a shotgun - or a handgun for that matter. And the procedure stated by the training sergeant seem a little odd. Very strange.
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    HillRider

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    It is not a safety check, really. They want to carry with the gun not cocked. Gotta press the trigger on a shotgun to do that....

    I understand all the reasons for pressing the trigger. My point is that it violates the rule of "treating every gun as if it were loaded," function testing after reassembly aside. As we see, the evidence clearly indicates, this is where problems arise.
     
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    txinvestigator

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    I understand all the reasons for pressing the trigger. My point is that it violates the rule of "treating every gun as if it were loaded," function testing after reassembly aside. As we see, the evidence clearly indicates, this is where problems arise.
    Understood. What would you have in mind?

    Lets say you are on duty and you have a shotgun. I am on the next shift and driving your assigned car. You park and go inside to turn in your shotgun, radio, turn in evidence, several reports, etc. While you are doing that, I am in briefing. When briefing is over, I pick up the keys, my radio and the shotgun. I have no idea what condition the gun is in. A press check shows a round in the chamber. At that point, it matters not why the round is chambered, it is. We carry with a clear chamber and the gun uncocked. So what do I do now?

    Lets look at your shift; you made a call at 3am of a burglar alarm at a business. You arrived and found the back door kicked in, and observed a person run by inside to a room. You chamber a round and you and your back up enter and make a felony arrest (good job) . Suspect in custody you are ready to go back on patrol. How do you get your shotgun back to cruiser ready?
     

    HillRider

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    Understood. What would you have in mind?

    Lets say you are on duty and you have a shotgun. I am on the next shift and driving your assigned car. You park and go inside to turn in your shotgun, radio, turn in evidence, several reports, etc. While you are doing that, I am in briefing. When briefing is over, I pick up the keys, my radio and the shotgun. I have no idea what condition the gun is in. A press check shows a round in the chamber. At that point, it matters not why the round is chambered, it is. We carry with a clear chamber and the gun uncocked. So what do I do now?

    Lets look at your shift; you made a call at 3am of a burglar alarm at a business. You arrived and found the back door kicked in, and observed a person run by inside to a room. You chamber a round and you and your back up enter and make a felony arrest (good job) . Suspect in custody you are ready to go back on patrol. How do you get your shotgun back to cruiser ready?

    I understand departments, military, or any other group that are issued firearms as a part of the job are going to have to follow procedures. This is why I'm not hung up on this story and pretty much accept that shit happens from time to time when you have a few guys who can't carry out somewhat risky procedures.
     
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    Big Dipper

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    Assuming that we are talking about a pump action shot gun, why can't "cruiser ready" be unloaded with the action open?

    The "standard" at trap and skeet ranges is that anyone who is walking around with their shotgun (i.e. not at a station actually shooting) must have the action open - whether it is a break, pump or semi-auto action.

    The "condition" of the gun is visually obvious to everyone and even if a shell were in the chamber you cannot fire with the bolt open.
     

    Shorts

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    So out of all the fumbling with the gun, where are the shells in all this? Are officers not allowed to unload and reload rounds from the gun? If so, the expectation is officers are suppose to handle the gun and it be required to be in certain conditions which vary throughout the day yet they are handicapped from handling the ammo to put the gun in the condition it needs to be in?
     

    txinvestigator

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    So out of all the fumbling with the gun, where are the shells in all this? Are officers not allowed to unload and reload rounds from the gun? If so, the expectation is officers are suppose to handle the gun and it be required to be in certain conditions which vary throughout the day yet they are handicapped from handling the ammo to put the gun in the condition it needs to be in?

    The officers must handle the ammo. I was just trying to show that these guns must be maniplated.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Assuming that we are talking about a pump action shot gun, why can't "cruiser ready" be unloaded with the action open?

    The "standard" at trap and skeet ranges is that anyone who is walking around with their shotgun (i.e. not at a station actually shooting) must have the action open - whether it is a break, pump or semi-auto action.

    The "condition" of the gun is visually obvious to everyone and even if a shell were in the chamber you cannot fire with the bolt open.
    In a nutshell, crap would get in the action.
     

    breakingcontact

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    OK. Issue the officers an ammo try that only holds 6 or whatever shells. When the tray is full the gun is empty. Plus do the usual check to clear both mag and chamber.
     

    TheDan

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    I had no idea that "cruiser ready" was a thing, but I've been carrying my shotguns that way for years. If I have to rack a round into the chamber but don't end up firing it, I'll either hold the loading elevator up or go ahead and let a shell pop onto the elevator and manually pull the shell out. Before I send the action closed I have my fingers in there making sure there's no shell about to be chambered and I also visually watch it as I rack it closed. Only after I've tactilely (not tactically, lol) and visually confirmed there's nothing in the chamber do I pull the trigger.

    The "accidents happen" mentality is just wrong, wrong, wrong. These NDs stem from a fundamental lack of respect for firearms and lack of knowledge on their operation. I really don't get the looking away for 2 seconds part either. Gives the mental image of these guys closing their eyes and looking away as they pull the trigger; half expecting it to go off every time :p
     

    zx9rt1

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    A higher standard applies here. Police, professional, duty to protect and serve, role models for their communities, and now all of these AD/ND's? They are not setting a very good example. Needs to be corrected ASAP and the powers that be, need to figure it out. Just my opinion. Others may vary.
     

    txinvestigator

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    OK. Issue the officers an ammo try that only holds 6 or whatever shells. When the tray is full the gun is empty. Plus do the usual check to clear both mag and chamber.

    Until that extra round gets in there. Stuff like that happens. It is not foolproof, but procedures can be put into place to mitigate the risk.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Notice i said still check it.

    Then lets go with my original clearing rod suggestion.


    The trigger HAS to be pressed. A two person check in the field, and a chamber for the muzzle back at the station seems to me to be a safe and workable solution. However, the human factor remains. Whatever policy is chosen, it depends on the individual to comply. Therein lies the possibilty for carelessness.
     

    breakingcontact

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    The trigger HAS to be pressed. A two person check in the field, and a chamber for the muzzle back at the station seems to me to be a safe and workable solution. However, the human factor remains. Whatever policy is chosen, it depends on the individual to comply. Therein lies the possibilty for carelessness.

    Why does the trigger have to be pressed?
     

    Pilgrim

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    I don't know much about him.

    He was ex-Chief of California Highway Patrol I believe. Career politician who some say has a record of promoting gun control. Can't verify but there was a video on him leading the gun buyback program in Austin. Came off as an arrogant prick...
     

    breakingcontact

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    He was ex-Chief of California Highway Patrol I believe. Career politician who some say has a record of promoting gun control. Can't verify but there was a video on him leading the gun buyback program in Austin. Came off as an arrogant prick...

    He was in CHP but i dont remember that he was chief. He did get a large settlement in some sort of harassment law suit.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Why does the trigger have to be pressed?

    Because of the way shotguns work. If you clear it and close the slide then load the tube, you cannot just rack the slide to get the gun into action. The action release must be pressed. In a stress situation, that step can be difficult at best. Training can alleviate that, but LE agencies are on thin training budgets, and handgun training is already minimal.
     

    breakingcontact

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    Because of the way shotguns work. If you clear it and close the slide then load the tube, you cannot just rack the slide to get the gun into action. The action release must be pressed. In a stress situation, that step can be difficult at best. Training can alleviate that, but LE agencies are on thin training budgets, and handgun training is already minimal.

    I knew the first part. Interesting. I wonder what percent of a major depts budget is for training?

    Id imagine most of it is for pay/benefits, cars/fuel and insurance.
     
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