American Civil War enthusiasts thread
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Oh, my gosh, where to start.... Lincoln carried the power of the Presidential office via executive orders further than any other American President. Since Lincoln (and the North) won the war history remembers him as a hero who saved the Union, but if he had lost the war he would be remembered as the dolt who trampled the Constitution and lost the Union. Among the things Lincoln did was to suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus for hundreds of Americans, order the closure of newspapers and/or jail editors who were unfavorable to the Union, he ordered the expulsion of citizens out of the country (ie., Clement Vallandingham), he called forth the militia at the start of the war without Congressional approval, he authorized expenditures from the treasury without Congressional approval, and ordered martial law in states where the local courts claimed jurisdiction. That's a general rundown.
On the one hand I admire Lincoln for some of his writings and speeches, as well as his principles in his earlier years, but as President he usurped a lot of power and acted unconstitutionally contrary to glossed-over representations of him today in many history books.
forgive my ignorance
I think you misunderstood the smilies he used. I think he meant that he expected a huge political debate to ensue regarding Lincoln, but I think most members here are on the same page and we're probably safe from a fist fight....
San Antone RR
Well-Known
Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner!!!
ROGER4314
Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
On the one hand I admire Lincoln for some of his writings and speeches, as well as his principles in his earlier years, but as President he usurped a lot of power and acted unconstitutionally contrary to glossed-over representations of him today.............
Oh, I get it. It's kinda like the Knothead in office right now, huh?
Flash
Oh, I get it. It's kinda like the Knothead in office right now, huh?
Flash
ROGER4314
Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
You sure have to sit back and say, what the hell was Lee thinking at Gettysburg?
Remember that up to that point, the South was kicking some righteous butt and Gettysburg was the high water mark of the southern conflict. They had some successes later, but Lee's image of invincibility took a beating. Lee was also out of his territory, into enemy turf and his supply lines were long.
When your successes are many, it's easy to forget that as you get farther from home, it's harder to keep an army functioning on the other guy's turf. His army was never well equipped some of his men didn't have boots and made do with what they had.
The south sustained major damage from the war and Lee wanted to bring the fight to the north to give them a taste of it. Along the same time, European nations refused to recognize the government of the Confederacy and there was even a peace negotiation offer under a white flag. When Lincoln heard of the success at Gettysburg, he sent the peace negotiator away. The tide really changed.
With over 50,000 casualties, neither side won at Gettysburg. Picket's charge will go down as one of the worst conceived attacks in the history of warfare. Blunders were many and anyone claiming victory in that mess had a screw loose.
Flash
Remember that up to that point, the South was kicking some righteous butt and Gettysburg was the high water mark of the southern conflict. They had some successes later, but Lee's image of invincibility took a beating. Lee was also out of his territory, into enemy turf and his supply lines were long.
When your successes are many, it's easy to forget that as you get farther from home, it's harder to keep an army functioning on the other guy's turf. His army was never well equipped some of his men didn't have boots and made do with what they had.
The south sustained major damage from the war and Lee wanted to bring the fight to the north to give them a taste of it. Along the same time, European nations refused to recognize the government of the Confederacy and there was even a peace negotiation offer under a white flag. When Lincoln heard of the success at Gettysburg, he sent the peace negotiator away. The tide really changed.
With over 50,000 casualties, neither side won at Gettysburg. Picket's charge will go down as one of the worst conceived attacks in the history of warfare. Blunders were many and anyone claiming victory in that mess had a screw loose.
Flash
No, because the dipstick in the White House now...IMO...doesn't enthrall me with his speeches or his writings. He's an empty suit and pretty much vapid, and Lincoln was much more dynamic. Obama and Lincoln are running neck-and-neck for trouncing the Constitution, but if Obama wins a 2nd term I have virtually no doubt he will clearly exceed Lincoln in that regard.
If you want to read great historical "fiction" about the Civil War, find the 3 book series by Jeff Shaara. The 2nd book, "Killer Angels", was the basis for the movie "Gettysburg" (where Martin Sheen played General Lee). The 1st book, "Gods and Generals" was also made into a movie. The books contain mostly factual information about the battles and generals, etc, but Shaara adds the "dialog" and soldiers' thoughts to enhance the story.
ROGER4314
Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
I walked the fields at Gettysburg and as a kid wondered what the Hell the commanders were thinking. When 54,000 men are killed & wounded, it would occur to me to cut my losses, drop back and regroup for another day. What possessed them to remain engaged for three bloody days and suffer such losses?
Pickets charge was a delaying tactic until reinforcements could arrive. Picket was ordered to make that attack which was supposed to link up with another unit. He was not a fool and not a bad commander. Under Longstreet, Picket was ordered by Lee to advance in the open. His men were slaughtered and later, when he was ordered to engage the rest of his command, his response was he didn't have any soldiers left.
So....What's the answer? Was it Lee's ego that kept them fighting? Did his previous success against the Blue Coats keep him looking for that magic break that would pull victory out of the rubble? He wanted to bring the fight to Yankee turf yet ordered his men to spare the local population and property from harm. During Sherman's march to the sea, he left nothing that would burn, unburned. At Gettysburg, none of what they did makes any damned sense.
Keeping things in perspective, we lost about the same number of men in ten years of fighting in Viet Nam as we lost in three days in Gettysburg, Pa. Lots of the 50K+ casualties were wounded at Gettysburg but remember, there were no antibiotics and no anesthesia then. Sanitation was terrible and a wound of any kind was a possible death warrant. We don't really know how many died as a result of the conflict.
My reaction to Gettysburg.....WTF? Were they nuts?
Flash
Pickets charge was a delaying tactic until reinforcements could arrive. Picket was ordered to make that attack which was supposed to link up with another unit. He was not a fool and not a bad commander. Under Longstreet, Picket was ordered by Lee to advance in the open. His men were slaughtered and later, when he was ordered to engage the rest of his command, his response was he didn't have any soldiers left.
So....What's the answer? Was it Lee's ego that kept them fighting? Did his previous success against the Blue Coats keep him looking for that magic break that would pull victory out of the rubble? He wanted to bring the fight to Yankee turf yet ordered his men to spare the local population and property from harm. During Sherman's march to the sea, he left nothing that would burn, unburned. At Gettysburg, none of what they did makes any damned sense.
Keeping things in perspective, we lost about the same number of men in ten years of fighting in Viet Nam as we lost in three days in Gettysburg, Pa. Lots of the 50K+ casualties were wounded at Gettysburg but remember, there were no antibiotics and no anesthesia then. Sanitation was terrible and a wound of any kind was a possible death warrant. We don't really know how many died as a result of the conflict.
My reaction to Gettysburg.....WTF? Were they nuts?
Flash
I agree, Shiloh is one of my favorites. I didn't know they allowed camping there, and that would be really neat to do as a kid.
Trying to sift an answer from all the historical information leaves so much room for that doubt. My opinion is that Lee was overconfident, and the fact that he chose to proceed with the battle even though he held poor terrain proves that. I agree with you after walking across the fields where Pickett's charge took place it was a horribly exposed are to send troops across, and I'm surprised any Confederates made it up to the Union lines.
