Hurley's Gold

ARs to avoid, which brands are not worth the money?

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  • AustinN4

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    I'm going to assume you are speaking from experience, so I ask. What are the problem areas you have encountered with these lower tier AR's choking during matches/classes?
    Without reinventing the wheel, it mostly comes down to function (feeding, firing and extraction) problems due to poor quality parts or sloppy installation of parts. It also includes poor quality parts breaking. The better companies tend to source better parts and install them correctly. I would rather pay a 100 or so more on the front end to get a better built AR that won't shit the bed under hard use, but not all people feel the same and not all people will use their AR hard, and that is OK.

    As I said, I have no interest in reinventing the wheel. See these threads:

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

    "I can build a better rifle for less money!"

    "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"
     

    TX0303

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    There's no need to pay $700 for a used gun.
    Get a complete Spikes lower from Aim Surplus or Joe Bob's $260
    Complete upper from Palmetto's deal of the day $400 or less
    Mag and Ammo deal from Palmetto $90
     
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    mitchntx

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    I'm going to assume you are speaking from experience, so I ask. What are the problem areas you have encountered with these lower tier AR's choking during matches/classes?

    Without reinventing the wheel, it mostly comes down to function (feeding, firing and extraction) problems due to poor quality parts or sloppy installation of parts. It also includes poor quality parts breaking. The better companies tend to source better parts and install them correctly. I would rather pay a 100 or so more on the front end to get a better built AR that won't shit the bed under hard use, but not all people feel the same and not all people will use their AR hard, and that is OK.

    As I said, I have no interest in reinventing the wheel. See these threads:

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

    "I can build a better rifle for less money!"

    "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"


    A spread sheet full of features and builds and 600 posts spread between two threads really doesn't answer the questions.

    I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what, specifically, poor quality parts or sloppy installation are you referring?

    The only thing I can think of, other than the quirk about the bolt release lever, is a run of improperly staked gas keys which plagued some of these lesser expensive brands a few years ago. I have both DPMS and Rock River issued.

    AR_Stake_1.jpg



    The bolt on the left is a 1 year old Rock River and the bolt on the far right is a 1 year old DPMS issued bolt.

    The one in the center is a 4 year old DPMS and the staking is not as pronounced as the newer one on the right.
    For what it's worth, the 4 year old AR has close to 6000 rounds through it without a single issue.

    Again ... not trying to be argumentative, just wanting to understand the issues that concern you.
     

    Mikeinhistory

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    I have a Bushmaster XM15. Completely stock with the carry handle attached. I think it was around $500. Put every kind of ammo I could find through it with no problems. I've shot it out to 250 yards with the irons and it is as accurate as anything else. Don't take it out every time I shoot but it gets fair usage. I use it a lot when people are visiting or whatever. I have shot it one weekend put it in the safe and shot it again a few days later without cleaning it and it was fine even then. My family was here and I took it out on a Sunday then on a Wednesday then on Friday and I didn't clean it that whole time. No problems. I will have to say my dad is a Colt guy but the Bushmaster totally surprised me in the best way.
     

    jordanmills

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    if you are asking about the LPK then yes its pretty slick stuff. Or if you can get your hands on spikes enhanced LPK.

    Anything DD is good stuff. They pay attention to quality with everything they make.

    sent from Jennifer Lawrence's bedroom

    I was thinking that. Thanks. I met the head of their IT department at an industry thing last month and we got to talking about his other line of work.
     

    Texasgordo

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    I have a Bushmaster M4 and a S&W MP-15 Sport. I have used them for hog hunting and range toys and have never had a failure. There are much better ARs out there but these two have great to me.
     

    deemus

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    I have a Rock River AR, and love it. The trigger is really nice compared to others I have shot.

    I also have a target, bull-barrel AR upper from Model 1 Sales. I love it, and its crazy accurate. But I bought it from them before I heard about how bad their stuff is. I have had zero problems, but I would likely not buy another upper from them. Especially a regular style AR upper.

    I have built several AR lowers, and have used the Daniel Defense LPK on a couple. Its superior to the other LPK's I have used. I would not hesitate to buy pretty much anything from them based on that kit.
     

    jtw2

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    I've built a lot of guns using Model 1 and DPMS and never had any issues with them.
    Only guns I've ever had an issue with was Hesse. He's like Speshul Weaponz for the AR world.
     

    AustinN4

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    A spread sheet full of features and builds and 600 posts spread between two threads really doesn't answer the questions. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what, specifically, poor quality parts or sloppy installation are you referring?
    First, as to what I posted, I was trying to answer Southpaw's question, and I did so in general terms as I am not going to get caught up in trying to address every gun and every problem.

    As to the links, even though the first link says spreadsheet in it, it really isn't a spreadsheet. It is normal sentences and paragraphs with additional links to further information.

    As to the next 2 links, I didn't mean for anyone to read the entire threads and I should have indicated that. The first post in both links should be sufficient unless you just want to read more.

    No disrespect intended, but I kinda thought people could have figured out all 3 links for themselves. Now I know to give more specific instructions.

    As to your specific photo and questions - I can't tell you when, or even if, that carrier gas key will come loose and fail, but it is a piss poor job of staking. In fact it is not really staked at all. The 2 on the side look better. It is good to know that the more recent BCGs from those guys are better.

    Were it my BCG, I would have properly staked those carrier key bolts a long time ago. But my standards do not need to be your or anyone else's standards. Just because I wouldn't put up with it doesn't mean you shouldn't. To each his own. All is good if you are happy with it. I am glad that is has worked for you so far.

    But what I am not going to do is get caught up in an arfcom-style pissing contest regarding my standards and someone else's. As I stated earlier in this thread, in the under $1,000 price range, a Colt 6920 ($995 at GT) is a really really well made AR with high quality sourced parts. If that was my price range, that is what I would buy and I wouldn't try to save a few dollars with a lesser AR. But that is for MY intended use and MY standards. Each person needs to do the research and make that decision for themselves.
     
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    Southpaw

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    First, as to what I posted, I was trying to answer Southpaw's question, and I did so in general terms as I am not going to get caught up in trying to address every gun and every problem.

    As to the links, even though the first link says spreadsheet in it, it really isn't a spreadsheet. It is normal sentences and paragraphs with additional links to further information.

    As to the next 2 links, I didn't mean for anyone to read the entire threads and I should have indicated that. The first post in both links should be sufficient unless you just want to read more.

    No disrespect intended, but I kinda thought people could have figured out all 3 links for themselves. Now I know to give more specific instructions.

    As to your specific photo and questions - I can't tell you when, or even if, that carrier gas key will come loose and fail, but it is a piss poor job of staking. In fact it is not really staked at all. The 2 on the side look better. It is good to know that the more recent BCGs from those guys are better.

    Were it my BCG, I would have properly staked those carrier key bolts a long time ago. But my standards do not need to be your or anyone else's standards. Just because I wouldn't put up with it doesn't mean you shouldn't. To each his own. All is good if you are happy with it. I am glad that is has worked for you so far.

    But what I am not going to do is get caught up in an arfcom-style pissing contest regarding my standards and someone else's. As I stated earlier in this thread, in the under $1,000 price range, a Colt 6920 ($995 at GT) is a really really well made AR with high quality sourced parts. if that was my price range, that is what I would buy, and I wouldn't try to save a few dollars wil a lesser AR. But that is for MY intended use and MY standards. Each person needs to do the research and make that decision for themselves.

    I don't think anyone wanted a pissing contest here, but as for me personally, I was more interested in hearing about your experiences you spoke about with lesser AR's choking in a match/class setting. I wanted to see if there was some commonality in their failure whereby I might say put together one of my own but say use a higher end barrel, for example.

    Another question that you bring up for me, and anyone can answer this as well, is the source of the parts for the $1000 Colt as opposed to the $700 rifle. Is there any place I can find out more details about their source as I would be interested in confirming that they are in fact better quality and what makes them so.


    Again, I am not asking this in hopes of getting into an argument, I would just like to know
     

    mitchntx

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    AustinN4 sense you are a little ticked. Sorry.

    No disrespect intended.

    It's difficult to tell on an internet forum who is an expert and who is a good at Google searching.
     

    itchin

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    I'm not a fan of arf.com but I've been around long enough to see bushmasters with cases stuck in the chamber and gas keys coming loose. I'm sure the low end budget rifles work for most shooters.
     

    AustinN4

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    ......................, but as for me personally, I was more interested in hearing about your experiences you spoke about with lesser AR's choking in a match/class setting. I wanted to see if there was some commonality in their failure whereby I might say put together one of my own but say use a higher end barrel, for example.
    Seriously, most are explained all this link: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

    Quick summary, not all inclusive:
    Incorrect buffer weight to gas tube length causing failure to properly cycle.
    Carrier gas keys coming loose and causing failure to properly cycle.
    Poor quality gas keys cracking causing failure to properly cycle.
    Castle nuts coming loose causing failure to properly cycle.
    Batch tested or untested BCG parts failing.
    Improper extractor spring and insert causing failure to extract.
    Broken firing pins (hey, shit happens to all of us, that is why we carry spares)

    With ARs, most brands are simply assemblers, they don't really make anything, especially the lower priced ones. They are typically very secretive regarding what parts they source.

    Even high end builders don't make all of their parts either. They also tend to be secretive about it. Noveske barrels, for instance are someone else's blanks, but the magic is in the Noveske finishing of those blanks. Rumor has it the N4 barrel blanks are made by FN. As to barrels, I am very biased (AustinN4, get it?), so I would be going with a Noveske barrel on my parts build.
     
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    Shooter McGavin

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    I have built several AR lowers, and have used the Daniel Defense LPK on a couple. Its superior to the other LPK's I have used. I would not hesitate to buy pretty much anything from them based on that kit.

    I'm seriously just simply curious, but why do you consider DD's LPKs superior? And superior to who? Minus a good trigger group, what makes the standard LPK from say CMMG or PSA for example, inferior to a LPK from DD? Again I'm not arguing or debating why it is or isn't, I would like to know the reasoning behind your opinion is all. Thanks!
     

    AustinN4

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    AustinN4 sense you are a little ticked. Sorry.
    Not really ticked, but the older I get the more impatient I find myself being. Sorry if I seemed short with you. But the information is out there and I don't feel the need to recreate the wheel. Again, it comes down to intended use and what standards one is willing to accept. It doesn't make one of us right or wrong, it just makes us differen't. I'm OK with that, really!
     

    AustinN4

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    I'm seriously just simply curious, but why do you consider DD's LPKs superior? And superior to who? Minus a good trigger group, what makes the standard LPK from say CMMG or PSA for example, inferior to a LPK from DD? Again I'm not arguing or debating why it is or isn't, I would like to know the reasoning behind your opinion is all. Thanks!
    Not the person you asked, and not the answer you expected, but here is the best lower parts kit on the planet:
    G&R Tactical Lower Parts Kits (OUT OF STOCK) at G and R Tactical

    Too bad they are out of stock but they sell out as quick as they can get them together. They hand sort and inspect each part!
     

    itchin

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    I've had a few of his lpks. They seem like decent parts. iirc some parts had lmt stamped on them.

    ETA: Grant at g&r is a smart guy. He built that place up by using the forums. Customer service is awesome.
     
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