Come on now that could never happen to him, he owns a gun.
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ATF jacked me up!!!!
- Thread starter jgon281
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Come on now that could never happen to him, he owns a gun.
Please don't get any misconceptions. I would say most of us here (including Alan and I, the site founders/owners) are pro-government/pro-LE/pro-mil. Though, many of us do have concerns over abuses of power. Unfortunately no matter what group, organization, department, company, etc there is, human beings are human beings. Human beings are fallible, and sometimes unfortunately resort to greed, abusing power or authority, or what have you. That's just the reality unfortunately. I will say in my personal experience, I have had nothing but the best experience with all of the LEO's and military guys I have known personally or met for various other reasons. Heck, my experience has been so positive I am actually taking steps towards becoming a LEO myself in the next few years possibly. Some of us may disagree with certain procedural things, however that is a far cry from actually being anti-government/anti-LE.
The police are going to ask you questions to get the answers they are looking for, ie. what Robocop said. They want to see if you are a normal person basically. If you blow up in their face, give them the 5th, or just appear exceedingly nervous then you are going to get the full treatment because you've made yourself stand out. In fact, you probably made yourself stand out to get pulled over in the first place.
The trick to police is to be polite, be short and concise and fight all of your battles in court. On the side of I35 is not the place to have your constitutional throwdown. I find that the motorist has the most control over the situation, and that most people that have trouble with police are generally aggressive and bullheaded in nature. It's, again, because they think they are in the right and just won't back down on the road. Defend yourself in court, that is the American way... always has been, always will be.
Does this mean we live in a police state? No. It simply means, if you make the cops life difficult, then he will return in kind. Cops are humans, and this is a normal human reaction. Sure there are super cops out there that are hell bent on strip searching anything that moves for that streak of cocaine or half smoked joint. These guys generally are the bane of the police force, much less society. Don't let the minority cloud your interpretation of the majority.
The trick to police is to be polite, be short and concise and fight all of your battles in court. On the side of I35 is not the place to have your constitutional throwdown. I find that the motorist has the most control over the situation, and that most people that have trouble with police are generally aggressive and bullheaded in nature. It's, again, because they think they are in the right and just won't back down on the road. Defend yourself in court, that is the American way... always has been, always will be.
Does this mean we live in a police state? No. It simply means, if you make the cops life difficult, then he will return in kind. Cops are humans, and this is a normal human reaction. Sure there are super cops out there that are hell bent on strip searching anything that moves for that streak of cocaine or half smoked joint. These guys generally are the bane of the police force, much less society. Don't let the minority cloud your interpretation of the majority.
Well, all I can tell you is life happens. If you want to walk around all bittered up when life hands you lemons, that's your perogative. If I cannot overcome those kinds of events in my personal life, well, those will be my short comings.
There's more to life than stuff and tragedies don't always happen to strangers.
As for cops questioning, fishing, or trying to flex their ego. I'm a tax paying American that has honorably served his country. I've been married to one woman my entire adult life, have raise two good kids, and love my family (although I do avoid some of my relatives). The last thing I want to deal with is some moron with a badge, a gun, and zero respect for his fellow American.
So, unless you want me asking you where you get your donuts, or hey dude, when is your baby due, or can you please remove your m00bs from my car door....
Is there really a reason to say something like that?
You sure are making a lot of generalized comments, so let me put you on the spot with a hypothetical question. Let's say that you are gone for a weekend, and come home to find out that your wife has been raped and murdered. Are you not going to call the police?
TxInvestigator,
After further review, my post wasn't the best.
All I'm saying is that if a LEO gets suspicious and wants to search your car, he is going to search your car. Things that make you suspicion is not necessarily probable cause. That’s all. I'm not arguing with searching with real probably cause.
After further review, my post wasn't the best.
All I'm saying is that if a LEO gets suspicious and wants to search your car, he is going to search your car. Things that make you suspicion is not necessarily probable cause. That’s all. I'm not arguing with searching with real probably cause.
That question is borderline retarded. But I'll take a stab at it, no pun intended.
Yes I would call the cops. From a legal standpoint alone, what is going to happen when friends or family start wondering where my wife went?
Getting back to some other points made by others .... Sermon vs Ticket ... Do you know how fast you were going isn't the same as a cop making me listen to his long winded rant about driving. The last time it happened, I remember thinking "Please stop talking, write my ticket, and go get a fresh tampon. Cripes, church is on Sunday and today is Wednesday". If that cop didn't realize I had tuned him out, he has never been married. In the end, I got my ticket, went to court, the case was dismissed.
Traffic stop fishing vs catching criminals ... I realize people like Timothy McVeigh were stopped and caught. I also realize that profiling is real.
Waterboarding, I'll inject ... Waterboard the hell out of terrorists. Do not waterboard my fellow American.
robocop10mm
Active Member
Before y"all get all wrapped around the axle about this Probable Cause and vehicle searches, you REALLY should do a little research into the reality of what is going on.
Generally warrants are needed to search fixed, immovable things like homes and bank accounts. Because of the moveable nature of a car, the SCOTUS has ruled that a warrant is not necessary for a car IF the same level of PC is applied to the warrantless search as would be applied to a search warrant affidavit. Warrantless searches are closely scrutinized by trial and appellate courts to insure there was, in fact, Probable Cause.
Can an officer lie about this PC? Of course. He can also lie on an affidavit for a search warrant. Officers that do things like this are found out (generally) and pay the price (probably not enough of a price and not often enough).
There is a different concept that many civilians do not understand. The Frisk. Many have heard of "frisking" a person, but did you realize a vehicle can also be frisked? If an officer has a "Reasonable Suspicion" a person is armed they can "frisk" or "pat down" the person and the area under rthe person's immediate control (arms reach in a vehicle).
If you get stopped for, say speeding, and the officer has an articulable belief you may be armed (with or with out a CHL), you and your passenger compartment can be frisked.
What is "Reasonable Suspicion"? It may be an empty shell casing on the back floor board, a holster on the back seat or a "furtive move". You are seen reaching under the front seat as the officer approaches. This may have been you putting your radar detector away but could just as easily be you hiding or retrieving a gun.
Make no mistake traffic stops are dangerous. Nearly everything an LEO does is dangerous. Cops die, too often. We have NO IDEA who you are when we approach your car. We look for clues about what to expect from you by what we see, smell and hear. We evaluate your demeanor to try to determine your propensity for violence (toward US!). Are you respectful, calm, cooperative and "normal"? Or are you dispresectful, irate, uncooperative and/or "weird"? Granted the calm cooperative ones CAN be sociopathic killers looking for the opportunity to end our tour of duty so we try to be careful with EVERYONE!
As stated before the side of the highway is not the time to argue the constitutionality of an officer's actions. Most agencies have in-car cameras that will record the events. If an officer oversteps his bounds there are recourses. If you actively participate in an escalation of tensions that leads to your demise, your heirs MAY become wealthy but you will still be dead. Far better to exercise your 5th Ammendment right against self incrimination.
Remember The 5th Ammendment does not guarantee you the right to "remain silent". It guarantees you the right to not incriminate yourself. There is a difference. Staying completely silent when stopped for speeding will likely get you removed from the vehicle in an unceremonious fashion.
If you intend to contest a citation, you do not want to be memorable. You want to be the person I cannot remember at all three months later.
robocop10mm
Active Member
I was going to comment but decided not to escalate this "Grassy Knoll" insanity.
Sounds to me like you have a problem with authority.
I would like to know where you have developed your outlook on law enforcement. Many police officers are well educated everyday with folks, whom work their entire careers at a single police agency. Not to mention, those officers who have served in the military. Police officers ask questions to calm people during their encounter with law enforcement and to develop a rapport with folks whom they come across, while conducting their duties, as well as to confirm known information or to learn new information. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, although it makes me question your logic. Law enforcement is a necessary function of society and continues to benefit us in many ways. I can not help but notice that your ideas are not in line with the others posting here. I would suggest that you take a look at yourself and reflect on your ideology prior to making ignorant blanket statements about others.
So you were lectured by an overzealous cop and suddenly they are all worthless and untrustworthy? That's a really poor perspective to have.
Cops are like anything in life. You've probably encountered bad service at a restaurant before, does that mean you avoid all restaurants and that everyone that works at one is incapable of performing their job? No.
I've read this I don't know how many times, now at this point I can't remember what the beginning was, had to go back, look, re-read and start over because the diverse nature that has come from this... I can definately see where someone would get the "impression" of "anti-LEO/gov/etc" but I don't feel that was their intention in their comments. I thankfully have never been treated unfairly by any LEO, I have been on the "wrong end of the gun" by merely being in a vehicle that matched the description of a robbery suspect, lled out 3 diff times in 1 night for it, thankfully the last time one of the officers i heard yell "its not him" so that ended the last event quicker. I was calm, obeyed all their orders and cooperated, oddly (at least i thought at the time) only once in three stops was my vehicle ever searched
assside from rambling my point is, not all LEOs are bad, and like the rest of the world, not all are good. I know this is to every extent been stated but I wanted to add my 2 cents also
assside from rambling my point is, not all LEOs are bad, and like the rest of the world, not all are good. I know this is to every extent been stated but I wanted to add my 2 cents also
I've had some less-than-positive experiences with the Plano police that have elevated my dislike of cops in general, but not to the level of some. I shake my head (or sort of grit my teeth) when I think about these incidents but no longer get angry about them.
I used to work second shift (3 to midnight), leaving me with hours of time in the evening when most businesses save for Wal-Mart, IHOP, and Denny's had long since closed. I often chose to take walks around 1 in the morning for lack of anything else to do. I initially stuck to the bike trails, but later started walking on the streets in my neighborhood.
On two separate occasions I was "pulled over" for nothing more than walking on a public street at night.
The first time was the most bizzare - and comical. I was walking on a sidewalk along a major 6-lane road into traffic when a police car approaches and flashes its lights briefly. I stop, then notice a second police car approaching from behind activate its lights and stop in the left turn lane. It's winter and I'm wearing a coat and listening to music. I slowly remove the headphones as the first police officer exits his car and says something about how the police are "looking for someone that fled from them," and asks me some standard questions. About the time that he's finished asking the usual name, address, occupation, what are you doing questions, a third vehicle approaches - the K9 unit. The first officer asks for my ID, which I give to him and the K9 officer gets out and walks over as the first officer goes back to hsi cruiser to confirm that I live a (criminally) dull life. The K9 officer makes some idle chat since it has since become apparent that I'm a nobody doing exactly what it looks like - taking a walk and listenin to music. I get the feeling that he's actually feeling kind of sheepish about this nonsense about the time that the first officer returns and gives me back my ID, thanks me for my cooperation then they all drive off.
This event has always perplexed me. I had been walking along that road (well-lit, into traffic) for about a half mile before I was stopped. I can only think of one oddball thing that I did in the two minutes before I was stopped - which was to take two steps into an alley that opened onto the road to glance at somethething then return to the sidewalk. I wonder if the cops were just bored. If someone had been running from the police in that general area, would they have walked along a major road into traffic rather than take one of the many narrow side streets with poor lighting and numerous places to hide? I still remember about time that the second car stopped thinking to myself "these guys are going to feel kind of silly about this afterwards."
The second event a few weeks later was more irritating. I was walking along a secondary non-residential street paralleling a highway behind a car dealership. I was vaguely aware of a parked truck in a back entrance to the car dealership which I assumed to be a night security guard. This was in winter within a few weeks of the first incident and I was again wearing a jacket and listening to music. As best I can remember, I walked past the dealership at a steady pace and did nothing else. I crossed an intersection and since the sidesalk ended there, started to cut through a parking lot. perhaps 10 yards from the road. A police car entered the parking lot behind me at about the same time as the truck from the dealership. The officer emerged about the same time as the guy in the pickeup truck, who ID'ed himself to the police officer by his unit number (I gather that he was an off-duty cop and had called one of his on-duty buddies) and the police officer began a somwhat hostile line of questioning centered around what was I doing at this time of night behind a car dealership. At some point early on, he said something about there being another man walking along the highway service road parallel to me at about the same time and started implying that I was casing the dealership or somesuch. He then sort of frisked me and took mild exception to the 2D maglite I had in an interior jacket pocket (I had spent some time in the recent past modifying it to run LEDs and the interior of the head was decidedly unusual-looking) and the pocketknife I had clipped to my front pocket. He relieved me of the pocketknife and asked for my ID. After about five minutes of this nonsense, he took my ID and went back to my car while the off-duty cop made some effort to make conversation. About three minutes later, he returned my ID and pocketknife (putting it in a back pocket and instructing me not to touch it until he had left) then they both pulled away.
This was definitely the more irritating incident. I walked about five miles that night to work off the anger and made a point to return along the same street and had to fight the temptation to wake up that off-duty cop and make him earn his pay as a security guard (on subsequent walks along the same street, I often spotted him dozing in his truck, waking about half of the time as I walked past). The mysterious "other man" paralleling me on the highway service road was not produced, and the police officer in the cruiser could not have "just stopped" such a man without circling around at record speed the long way because of the 1-way service road (the officer would have been approaching the dealership to make the turn onto the cross-street). Short of the fact that walking along these streets at 1AM with a flashlight (which was not immediately obvious in the jacket pocket) was unusual, I don't think there was any cause to stop me. I also suspect that if the security guard had been anyone other than an off-duty cop that the police department would have barely given them the time of day, nevermind get an officer on the scene double-quick.
I did not get a badge number or supervisor name for the on-duty officer and wasn't angry enough to call the police station in the days afterwards.
Those two incidents solidified my impression of Plano police as bored and having little actual crime to deal with since they had time to tie up resources for little other than "man on a public street at night" calls.
There was a third encounter with the police some weeks later when walking the streets at night that took all of about 90 seconds and did not involve a "stop." I was walking along a street, and two officers were on foot about ten paces into an alley - probably in response to a call. I crossed to the opposide side of the street and one noticed me when I was about 45 degrees from the alley axis. He asked me what I was doing, if I was drunk, and that was that once I readily and calmly provided those answers.
I used to work second shift (3 to midnight), leaving me with hours of time in the evening when most businesses save for Wal-Mart, IHOP, and Denny's had long since closed. I often chose to take walks around 1 in the morning for lack of anything else to do. I initially stuck to the bike trails, but later started walking on the streets in my neighborhood.
On two separate occasions I was "pulled over" for nothing more than walking on a public street at night.
The first time was the most bizzare - and comical. I was walking on a sidewalk along a major 6-lane road into traffic when a police car approaches and flashes its lights briefly. I stop, then notice a second police car approaching from behind activate its lights and stop in the left turn lane. It's winter and I'm wearing a coat and listening to music. I slowly remove the headphones as the first police officer exits his car and says something about how the police are "looking for someone that fled from them," and asks me some standard questions. About the time that he's finished asking the usual name, address, occupation, what are you doing questions, a third vehicle approaches - the K9 unit. The first officer asks for my ID, which I give to him and the K9 officer gets out and walks over as the first officer goes back to hsi cruiser to confirm that I live a (criminally) dull life. The K9 officer makes some idle chat since it has since become apparent that I'm a nobody doing exactly what it looks like - taking a walk and listenin to music. I get the feeling that he's actually feeling kind of sheepish about this nonsense about the time that the first officer returns and gives me back my ID, thanks me for my cooperation then they all drive off.
This event has always perplexed me. I had been walking along that road (well-lit, into traffic) for about a half mile before I was stopped. I can only think of one oddball thing that I did in the two minutes before I was stopped - which was to take two steps into an alley that opened onto the road to glance at somethething then return to the sidewalk. I wonder if the cops were just bored. If someone had been running from the police in that general area, would they have walked along a major road into traffic rather than take one of the many narrow side streets with poor lighting and numerous places to hide? I still remember about time that the second car stopped thinking to myself "these guys are going to feel kind of silly about this afterwards."
The second event a few weeks later was more irritating. I was walking along a secondary non-residential street paralleling a highway behind a car dealership. I was vaguely aware of a parked truck in a back entrance to the car dealership which I assumed to be a night security guard. This was in winter within a few weeks of the first incident and I was again wearing a jacket and listening to music. As best I can remember, I walked past the dealership at a steady pace and did nothing else. I crossed an intersection and since the sidesalk ended there, started to cut through a parking lot. perhaps 10 yards from the road. A police car entered the parking lot behind me at about the same time as the truck from the dealership. The officer emerged about the same time as the guy in the pickeup truck, who ID'ed himself to the police officer by his unit number (I gather that he was an off-duty cop and had called one of his on-duty buddies) and the police officer began a somwhat hostile line of questioning centered around what was I doing at this time of night behind a car dealership. At some point early on, he said something about there being another man walking along the highway service road parallel to me at about the same time and started implying that I was casing the dealership or somesuch. He then sort of frisked me and took mild exception to the 2D maglite I had in an interior jacket pocket (I had spent some time in the recent past modifying it to run LEDs and the interior of the head was decidedly unusual-looking) and the pocketknife I had clipped to my front pocket. He relieved me of the pocketknife and asked for my ID. After about five minutes of this nonsense, he took my ID and went back to my car while the off-duty cop made some effort to make conversation. About three minutes later, he returned my ID and pocketknife (putting it in a back pocket and instructing me not to touch it until he had left) then they both pulled away.
This was definitely the more irritating incident. I walked about five miles that night to work off the anger and made a point to return along the same street and had to fight the temptation to wake up that off-duty cop and make him earn his pay as a security guard (on subsequent walks along the same street, I often spotted him dozing in his truck, waking about half of the time as I walked past). The mysterious "other man" paralleling me on the highway service road was not produced, and the police officer in the cruiser could not have "just stopped" such a man without circling around at record speed the long way because of the 1-way service road (the officer would have been approaching the dealership to make the turn onto the cross-street). Short of the fact that walking along these streets at 1AM with a flashlight (which was not immediately obvious in the jacket pocket) was unusual, I don't think there was any cause to stop me. I also suspect that if the security guard had been anyone other than an off-duty cop that the police department would have barely given them the time of day, nevermind get an officer on the scene double-quick.
I did not get a badge number or supervisor name for the on-duty officer and wasn't angry enough to call the police station in the days afterwards.
Those two incidents solidified my impression of Plano police as bored and having little actual crime to deal with since they had time to tie up resources for little other than "man on a public street at night" calls.
There was a third encounter with the police some weeks later when walking the streets at night that took all of about 90 seconds and did not involve a "stop." I was walking along a street, and two officers were on foot about ten paces into an alley - probably in response to a call. I crossed to the opposide side of the street and one noticed me when I was about 45 degrees from the alley axis. He asked me what I was doing, if I was drunk, and that was that once I readily and calmly provided those answers.
No Texas1911, I was just giving one example. I've been driving for 30 years and lived a pretty active life and have spoken to my fair share of cops. Overall though, as I have admitted, I dislike their company and being in their presence. They have personality types that are extremely different from mine.
My basic point is I do not like being questioned or being fished. The best experience I ever had with a cop was when I was pulled over, asked for my license and insurance, he walked back to his car, he walked back to me, handed me two tickets, and left. No thank you, no drive safely, no nothing. That was pure heaven.
That is the professional way of handling someone like me.
Anyway, I'll leave you all to the earth is flat, the earth is round wordfest.
robocop10mm
Active Member
"Someone like you?" Maybe you should post a sticker on your car asking to not receive a lecture with your citation.
Our written policy on traffic enforcement is to take the action necessary to insure compliance with the law. If a discussion (lecture) gets the driver to understand the error of his ways, then policy dictates a warning. If after discussing the issue with the violator, it is clear nothing short of a ticket will get his attention then ticket it is. If the onewy cab ride to Central Booking is needed to get the driver's attention (and insure future compliance), then so be it. Traffic laws are made to help keep everyone safe on the road. Scofflaws pay the price for their cavalier attitudes.
That may be the intent, but the net effect is usually just revenue generation. Random speed zones, inconsistent criteria, decidedly inconsistent enforcement, and stoplights timed to encourage speeding seem to reinforce this.
There is also no neat linear correlation between exceeding the posted speed limit and risk. The common philosophy in America is to base the speed limit on worst-case conditions for the worst drivers (how many straight, 5-degree 45 MPH offramps from 70 MPH roads onto 55 MPH service roads have you seen?) rather than basing them on average drivers and average conditions. If you don't know to slow down for a 60 degree 100m radius turn on a 70 MPH highway at noon when the road is dry and visibility is perfect, basing conditions on midnight fog and black ice will not help.
Of course, it could be argued that the average American is too distracted when driving, too self-righteous, and too separated from the consequences of their mistakes. The plethora of stupid road signs and the dumbed-down nature of our laws is a consequence of our driving culture.
I would like to see police departments and the highway patrol funded well enough that they do not depend on citations for any sizeable chunk of their revenue. I would like to see a real emphasis on actual safety enforcement (ex: citations for tailgating, reckless driving, failure to yield, and other legitimate safety hazards) rather than the current shameless "revenue rangering".
+100 for idleprocess assesment of the true nature of stops by LEO's. I for one would pay an extra tax to keep them out on the street fighting crime and not being an overpaid traffic enforcement officer. I wonder how LEO's can actually keep getting up to go to work knowing that they are not being utilized as peace officers.
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