Background Checks for Personal Sales

[Shorts]

Do you believe that to enforce personal background checks, a national database would be required?
NICS is already involved in our business with current 4473s. Brought on by the Brady Bunch.

Also, is it true that every single national database in other countries have led to a confiscation?
Look up Australia and Canada for starters. Don't forget the mother of all roundups, Germany. With AU, it is recent enough that you will find crime data that will peak curiosity (less guns does not equal less crime).

Also, do you believe there would be costs to having personal background checks? It couldn't be free, nothing in life is free.
Absolutely. There is already a cost involved now doing FFL transfers. They range from $10-$100. An increase is surely to happen if all sales became FFL mandatory.

 

[Rob_USF]

A big thanks to everyone that has replied. I have read over all of it and have complied it all into a document with exact quotes from everyone here to give to my presentation group to read over.

I will continue to use information, so feel free to keep posting. Everything from here on out will be printed on a second document to give to everyone next week.

You guys are a great community and a big help!

Did I ever get word from a Moderator that I can host a survey here in the future? Just a questionnaire for 20 people (required for the grade).

 

[Renegade]

It is real simple, the 2nd gives codifies the right to keep and bear arms without infringement. Until there is a background check and 10 day waiting period on going to church, stating an opinion or any of the other rights in the first 10 amendments, I can not support the same fro the second. This goes double for the media and politicians.

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[jordanmills]

A big thanks to everyone that has replied. I have read over all of it and have complied it all into a document with exact quotes from everyone here to give to my presentation group to read over.

I will continue to use information, so feel free to keep posting. Everything from here on out will be printed on a second document to give to everyone next week.

You guys are a great community and a big help!

Did I ever get word from a Moderator that I can host a survey here in the future? Just a questionnaire for 20 people (required for the grade).

The board just changed hands. I don't see how there would be much of a problem as long as you didn't have ads or any other commercial involvement in it though. (note I don't run the board so don't take my word for it)

 

[Cozmolyne]

Universal Background Checks are unenforceable. If a friend comes over and gives me a gun and I give him money for it, no one will ever know besides the people we tell. The ATF won't come bursting in through the roof and burn down my house like Waco.

 

[Rob_USF]

There's always the typical argument of "Well the government registers your cars and you don't complain about that!"

What are a few good responses to that statement?

Thanks

 

[jrbfishn]

Gun Control - Just Facts
Gun control is not just a waste of time, it is STUPID.
The government already knows that, but dont want you to know.
Cdc web site, search for child mortality rates. They are more likely to drown taking a bath

 

[TwinGlocks]

Why are you against this?

Will do nothing to reduce crime or prevent criminals from getting guns. Criminals overwhelmingly acquire firearms through straw purchasers, black market dealers, or theft where there is no background check. The ones that go to retail stores or pawn shops can pass a background check already anyway. These sources accounted for 98% of gun all transfers to criminals in 1997, where the other 2% were at gun shows or flea markets. Do we really think background checks will help?

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

On a side note, in the Philippines they have people that fabricate fully functioning firearms out of scrap metal. I bet they subject their buyers to background checks......

Backyard Gun Shops In The Philippines

Why would you not want personal sale background checks?

Because I have little interest in dealing with the hassle of universal background checks if I'm not getting anything in return. (i.e reduced crime rate)

What would it hurt?

FFL's do not do these transfers for free and as a firearms enthusiast and collector it would hurt me every time I purchase a firearm from a private seller, not to mention the added time and hassle. Universal backgrounds checks would make my hobby cost more to me without any corresponding benefit that is demonstrable and/or tangible. I also don't want to lose the liberty of giving guns to family and friends (who I know are not criminals) without going through some BS paperwork process. The anti-gunners may say "Well Boo-hoo" but at the end of the day, I am giving up something for nothing and doesn't sit well with me.

I am also assuming by "Universal background checks" you really mean "Universal" or that all gun transfers must undergo a background check without exception. Well the only way to enforce this and make it "work" is with universal gun registration. Historically, gun registration has been a slippery slope to confiscation (New York City, Australia, UK, etc.) and often times worse (Germany, Ottoman Empire, Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Guatemala, Uganda, Rwanda, etc.). In summary, Universal Background Checks and by extension Universal Gun Registration, exposes the citizenry to gun confiscation. If confiscation were to happen after a mass shooting like in Australia and the U.K. or otherwise, then the citizenry is now exposed to criminals, tyrants, invaders, or anyone with nefarious intent with no means of fighting back and if any anti-gunner accuses you being paranoid, just ask them for their crystal ball that tells them that tyranny will never come to America. Not in 50 years, 100 years, 1000 years, ever!

You really have to ask yourself, what exactly are we getting in return to warrant the hassle of a background check and risking our freedoms and means of protection?

Are there any past examples of failures regarding the issue?

California has universal background checks. I wouldn't exactly call it a resounding success as California has consistently had a higher murder rate than Texas and many other states w/o UBC over the past 15 years.

Murder Rates Nationally and By State | Death Penalty Information Center

And when I say murder rate I am talking about all murders. If people simply traded their guns for melee weapons then at the end of the day, what did we really accomplish? It is intellectually dishonest to focus on gun-violence while failing to address the violence problem as a whole which is a common anti-gunner tactic.

 

[jvlc]

Besides all the obvious reasons; put simply, until and unless violaters (criminals) are prosecuted and the organizations that do the current back round checks and held accountable, their is no need to discuss any further regulations. Besides this bottom line the 2nd amendent is quite clear. Amen?

 

[Dash Riprock]

When is your debate? I've got a few thoughts to offer but I won't have time to get to this until the weekend.

 

[Southpaw]

There's always the typical argument of "Well the government registers your cars and you don't complain about that!"

What are a few good responses to that statement?

Thanks

The automobile or the right to use one is not protected under the Constitution specifically.

Driving isn't a right . It's a privilege granted by the state.

I see a lot anti gun people people try and use this argument time after time. It holds no water.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

There's always the typical argument of "Well the government registers your cars and you don't complain about that!"

What are a few good responses to that statement?

Thanks

Some will say "right vs privilege".

I say freedom of movement on a road I helped pay for is a right and that licensing driving is government overstepping it bounds.

That crowd will just think you're crazy if you use my argument though.

 

[Shorts]

There's always the typical argument of "Well the government registers your cars and you don't complain about that!"

Actually, we do. And we as in us on the diesel truck forums. A very large change came when the diesel formulation required change to ULSD as did the requirements for diesel emissions. This in turn caused the auto manf to change the engines and emissions systems which increased the overall cost of the vehicle, increased the cost of diesel, decreased the efficiency of the vehicle, increased state registration by implementing emissions testing, increased maintenance costs (anyone who dealt with DPF and a limp mode dead truck on the side of the road at rush hour knows this, like Dodge), added an additional cost by requiring Urea for certain systems (like Ford & Chevy), and increased fines for non-compliance.

With an increased cost in diesel came an increased cost in shipping food & goods. 18wheelers use diesel to pull their loads. What use to take $300 now takes $650 to fill up. Milk, veggies, bread - food, food prices went up. Someone has to pay. And since all of us eat and the majority shops at grocery stores, we all pay more. Those poor farmers and ranchers, they now pay more to grow and raise their crop and herds. They increase their price to stay above water since the food plant now charges them more because the trucking industry charges them more. You see where I'm going with this?

So, yes, we complaint about that. The cost of driving my truck just went up. ^^

Any time regulation (the govt) wants to step in and control a market the cost of doing business for everything in that line increases (money and pain in the rear factor), doesn't matter what it is. I would highly suggest a movie called 'Atlas Shrugged'. It is a good sci-fi that puts this concept into perspective. Have a look. You can find it on NetFlix streaming.


With all that said, driving is a privilege not a right. Traveling is a right. There is case law that addresses that. I'll try to look it up if you need me to. Just let me know.

 

[Renegade]

There's always the typical argument of "Well the government registers your cars and you don't complain about that!"

What are a few good responses to that statement?

In a gun debate, the car analogy is a grooved fastball you cannot wait to hit out of the park.

When it comes up, point out cars are only registered if they are to be driven on public roads. If you do not want to drive on public roads, no registration. If you choose to register your car, your registration and DL are recognized across all 50 states. Then ask them if they want the same system for guns, which would mean no 4473, no NICS, no restrictions on felons, stoners, etc, nada. A one page registration if you want to carry on public property and then your are licensed for use in all 50 states. Tell them we gun owners will go to that system tonight if they think it is so good.

 

[Southpaw]

In a gun debate, the car analogy is a grooved fastball you cannot wait to hit out of the park.

When it comes up, point out cars are only registered if they are to be driven on public roads. If you do not want to drive on public roads, no registration. If you choose to register your car, your registration and DL are recognized across all 50 states. Then ask them if they want the same system for guns, which would mean no 4473, no NICS, no restrictions on felons, stoners, etc, nada. A one page registration if you want to carry on public property and then your are licensed for use in all 50 states. Tell them we gun owners will go to that system tonight if they think it is so good.

Bravo!!! Now there's the answer to the automobile argument.

 

[Renegade]

Bravo!!! Now there's the answer to the automobile argument.

I am so proud of it let me add/re-write it:

When it comes up, point out cars are only registered if they are to be driven on public roads. If you do not want to drive on public roads, no registration. And no legal restrictions in its design either. Jimmy Johnson's #48 does not have to meet any Federal Laws, no emissions, crash testing, MPG, no 4473, no NICS, no restrictions on felons, stoners, etc, 800 HP and 200 MPH all 100% legal on private property. So to remain analogous that means MGs, Silencers, SBRs, etc, all 100% legal no registration or restriction of any kind if they are only used on private property.

If you choose to register your car, then yes some legal restrictions apply, but in exchange for those restrictions we get registration and DL that are recognized as valid across all 50 states, and again, no waiting periods, BG checks, etc to register, and we get 50 state carry. And since you can drive onto POs, military bases, etc, we should be able to carry their too.

Then ask them if they want the same system for guns. Tell them we gun owners will go to that system tonight if they think it is so good.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I am sure it has been mentioned already, but I have not read everything.
To the OP, persons with a CHL are not required to have a background check when purchasing from a dealer, so they should
be required to have one from an individual.....not that I think anybody should.

 

[TwinGlocks]

There's always the typical argument of "Well the government registers your cars and you don't complain about that!"

What are a few good responses to that statement?

Thanks

Car registration has never resulted in confiscation ever, nor is it logistically possible. Gun registration has on numerous occasions resulted in confiscation. If car registration led to confiscation, we would oppose it just as vigorously.

The whole car vs. gun analogy is whole another animal. I'll address that tonight or this weekend. Gotta go to work!

 

[ShootingTheBull]

There's always the typical argument of "Well the government registers your cars and you don't complain about that!"

What are a few good responses to that statement?

1. Cars are not a constitutionally-protected right.
2. Cars are convenient, whereas self-protection may be crucial.
3. No government, that I am aware of, has ever gone on a program of confiscating an individual's personal cars. Governments have repeatedly gone and confiscated individuals' firearms.

 

[ShootingTheBull]

EDIT: should have read to the end of the thread before posting, as others made my points, and renegade did much better...