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  • Mexican_Hippie

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    Feb 4, 2009
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    Renegade that's an awesome response.

    But I still think any licensing for anything should be optional, privately governed, and valued (or not) by the market.
     

    Kennydale

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    My $.02 Whenever something becomes POLITICALLY motivated. I become super suspicious. Stronger background checks are one of those items.
    We start building parameters of who can and who can't carry a gun. Being from NYC I had been told in order to get a CC permit was akin to having a personal interview with the POPE. It probably wouldn't happen. So who do we lock out of this process. You say you want to prevent people with mental disorders? So as a kid you had ADDH or something like that, as an adult maybe you lost a close friend or relative and are suffering from depression? How about you are a returning VET, Honorable discharge and all that , but you have bouts with severe PTSD. And what about those Aging seniors who still have the need for personal security, but are now in their 80's-90's. If you tell me that stricter checks would keep Al Queda and Drug cartels from getting guns .... I'd just laugh in your face. The Government wants a monopoly on firearms. Look around at who and what have done weapon confiscation in the past. It worked well for American Indians (Just ask Sitting Bull), It worked well for certain Communist regimes (They Love CHE and MAO). And it definitely worked for the Nazis. When a Liberal tells you this is for the Children, remind them when a driver who is under the influence runs over a group of kids at a school bus stop. We ask to prosecute the person , NOT BAN AUTOMOBILES. The bottom line is the Constitution says "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    So what part of infringed is not clear here.
     

    kotetu

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    Oct 23, 2013
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    A big thanks to everyone that has replied. I have read over all of it and have complied it all into a document with exact quotes from everyone here to give to my presentation group to read over.

    I will continue to use information, so feel free to keep posting. Everything from here on out will be printed on a second document to give to everyone next week.

    You guys are a great community and a big help!

    Did I ever get word from a Moderator that I can host a survey here in the future? Just a questionnaire for 20 people (required for the grade).

    I have read that when convincing liberals you have to approach from the point of view of oppression. So to put it in perspective, licensing fees raise the cost of guns, putting them out of the reach of the poor, who are disproportionally targeted by criminals. Hence licensing fees oppress the poor and prevent them from being able to protect themselves.

    I also think that the calguns user (former?) booshanky has some good data on the topic:
    Booshanky's guide to debating with anti-gunners. I'm a liberal socialist, so I've spent plenty of time on both sides of the political spectrum. Feel free to add your own! : gunpolitics

    Also, GunCite has a lot of great articles to read. One myth that gun grabbers almost always bring up is the "gun owners are more likely to shoot a family member than a criminal" - thoroughly debunked and documented.
    http://www.guncite.com/

    Another thing gun grabbers often (dishonestly) do is to add suicides and accidents together with homicides as if they are all caused by the guns. So if they start flinging around figures like "30,000 people die every year!" you can gently correct them down to the roughly 10-11k homicide number. (17k or so suicides, iirc.)
     
    Last edited:

    TexasRedneck

    1911 Nut
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    Jan 23, 2009
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    If face to face, Texas ID to prove buyer is over the age of 18, an' green paper with dead presidents.

    You do NOT have to be 21 to buy a pistol OR rifle if you're buying from an individual.
     

    majormadmax

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    Aug 27, 2009
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    Helotes!
    Will do nothing to reduce crime or prevent criminals from getting guns. Criminals overwhelmingly acquire firearms through straw purchasers, black market dealers, or theft where there is no background check. The ones that go to retail stores or pawn shops can pass a background check already anyway. These sources accounted for 98% of gun all transfers to criminals in 1997, where the other 2% were at gun shows or flea markets. Do we really think background checks will help?

    http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

    On a side note, in the Philippines they have people that fabricate fully functioning firearms out of scrap metal. I bet they subject their buyers to background checks...... :D

    Backyard Gun Shops In The Philippines

    Because I have little interest in dealing with the hassle of universal background checks if I'm not getting anything in return. (i.e reduced crime rate)

    FFL's do not do these transfers for free and as a firearms enthusiast and collector it would hurt me every time I purchase a firearm from a private seller, not to mention the added time and hassle. Universal backgrounds checks would make my hobby cost more to me without any corresponding benefit that is demonstrable and/or tangible. I also don't want to lose the liberty of giving guns to family and friends (who I know are not criminals) without going through some BS paperwork process. The anti-gunners may say "Well Boo-hoo" but at the end of the day, I am giving up something for nothing and doesn't sit well with me.

    I am also assuming by "Universal background checks" you really mean "Universal" or that all gun transfers must undergo a background check without exception. Well the only way to enforce this and make it "work" is with universal gun registration. Historically, gun registration has been a slippery slope to confiscation (New York City, Australia, UK, etc.) and often times worse (Germany, Ottoman Empire, Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Guatemala, Uganda, Rwanda, etc.). In summary, Universal Background Checks and by extension Universal Gun Registration, exposes the citizenry to gun confiscation. If confiscation were to happen after a mass shooting like in Australia and the U.K. or otherwise, then the citizenry is now exposed to criminals, tyrants, invaders, or anyone with nefarious intent with no means of fighting back and if any anti-gunner accuses you being paranoid, just ask them for their crystal ball that tells them that tyranny will never come to America. Not in 50 years, 100 years, 1000 years, ever!

    You really have to ask yourself, what exactly are we getting in return to warrant the hassle of a background check and risking our freedoms and means of protection?

    California has universal background checks. I wouldn't exactly call it a resounding success as California has consistently had a higher murder rate than Texas and many other states w/o UBC over the past 15 years.

    Murder Rates Nationally and By State | Death Penalty Information Center

    And when I say murder rate I am talking about all murders. If people simply traded their guns for melee weapons then at the end of the day, what did we really accomplish? It is intellectually dishonest to focus on gun-violence while failing to address the violence problem as a whole which is a common anti-gunner tactic.

    Excellent response!

    I don't think a background check is tantamount to a registration system no more than the current 4473 is (and no, I don't consider it to be one). It will do little to stop the illegal sale of firearms therefore it will impact law-abiding citizens more so than criminals, which is what the law should be focused on.

    So instead of more stringent regulations on the legal sales of firearms, the government (and subsequently law enforcement agencies) should focus on increased efforts against those who obtain them illegally...

    All it would do is add cost and unnecessary burden on an already over-taxed system with little to no benefit.
     

    majormadmax

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    9   0   0
    Aug 27, 2009
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    Helotes!
    Also, if you're doing research into the effects of firearms legislation, this is an excellent source of information...

    Gun Facts - Gun Control | Facts | Debunk | Myths


    "Gun Facts™ is a free e-book that debunks common myths about gun control. It is intended as a reference guide for journalists, activists, politicians, and other people interested in restoring honesty to the debate about guns, crime, and the 2nd Amendment.

    Gun Facts has over 110 pages of information. Divided into chapters based on gun control topics (assault weapons, ballistic finger printing, firearm availability, etc.), finding information is quick and easy.

    Each chapter lists common gun control myths, then lists a number of documented and cited facts (with over 530 detailed footnotes). Thus when a neighbor, editor or politician repeats some sound bite about firearm control policy, you can quickly find that myth then rebuke with real information."

    Cheers! M2
     

    Rob_USF

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    Dec 29, 2012
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    Thanks for all the responses everyone. I'm beginning the process of putting the debate together right now, and I will use every single bit of information I've gotten here.

    I haven't quite gotten the questionnaire ready to be posted, but I will create a new thread when I do.

    Keep posting and I'll keep using. Sources are GREAT and thanks to everyone for posting statistics and the websites backing them up, I'll be using those as well!
     

    ZX9RCAM

    Over the Rainbow bridge...
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    2   0   0
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    When you start the new thread, please provide a link here so those of us subscribed to this thread won't accidentally miss it.
     

    Rob_USF

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    Dec 29, 2012
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    Just a quick bump to let everyone know that I made an A on this debate thanks to the help of the community here. I just want to say thank you to everyone that participated and that I really appreciate the extra time you guys set aside to help me out with this. It is very much appreciated.
     

    matefrio

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    0   0   0
    Jan 19, 2010
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    Just a quick bump to let everyone know that I made an A on this debate thanks to the help of the community here. I just want to say thank you to everyone that participated and that I really appreciate the extra time you guys set aside to help me out with this. It is very much appreciated.
    Now you're a master debater?
     

    Shorts

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    Mar 28, 2008
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    Just a quick bump to let everyone know that I made an A on this debate thanks to the help of the community here. I just want to say thank you to everyone that participated and that I really appreciate the extra time you guys set aside to help me out with this. It is very much appreciated.

    Good job on that grade.

    So did yall actually get to do any live debate in the classroom? If so, how'd it go? Did anyone bring up new arguments, gun laws or ideas to prepare for?
     

    Mreed911

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    28   0   0
    Apr 18, 2013
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    Just a quick bump to let everyone know that I made an A on this debate thanks to the help of the community here. I just want to say thank you to everyone that participated and that I really appreciate the extra time you guys set aside to help me out with this. It is very much appreciated.

    New to this thread, but congrats! Being able to present a cogent argument and consider the other side of things in doing so is a valuable skill... one that's rapidly disappearing.
     
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