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Becoming a gunsmith ?

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  • TexMex247

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    I have always been curious about what it takes to become a gunsmith. Does it even require licensing or certification? Is it "legal" to simply call yourself a gunsmith and start doing some work? I realize you are obviously limited to what you know, personally I would not be comfortable trying to refinish a stock. However, I could assemble and AR, mini 14, 10/22, a Remington 870 shotgun, and several handguns from loose pieces, blindfolded. Not that it makes me an expert on any of them but I would be confident to install trigger groups/components or re-barrel any of them given the right tools and equipment. I have seen a lot of stuff about PSU and other correspondence courses but would prefer an apprenticeship program of some sort. Anyone with experience feel free to chime-in.....
    Military Camp
     

    KellyAsh

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    I dont have any specific experience as a gunsmith but I have looked into it a little. Im sure there are others on here that could answer you better but since noone has repsonded I'll offer my advice. The first question that popped into my mind was what kind of gunsmith are you wanting to be? A big time (Kimber, Ruger, S&W, etc) or small time (shop out back of the house)?

    For a big time smith, I would think that a mechanical engineering degree would serve you the best, first. Second might be on the job experience with another manufacturer. Then maybe manufacturers certifcations.

    For a small time smith, I would think the factors would be #1 Experience #2 Education/Manufacturers Certs #3 Equipment to do whatever work you can sell #4 Marketing.

    Again, these are just my thoughts. Hopefully someone with mo9re personal experience can add their advice.

    Good luck.
     

    cowboy45

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    May 1, 2008
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    Training? Wouldnt be bad, unless you are blessed with talent and brains. License would be required. Tools and equipment will be a major investment. It would be a very romantic career that has a lot of history in the gun culture. I think that someone that is motivated and has ideas, could be very sucessful in that venture. Look at some of the major names today.,Clark, Wilson,Baer. and countless ones from the past.
    If you have the passion and the drive to do it, go for it. It is like any other job out there, in that you only get out of it what you put into it. Good Luck to you!
     

    TexMex247

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    I'm thinking, shop out back type of operation to start. I would also specialize in what I already know best. I'm not looking for a full time career so for now I'll start with reading lots of manuals and gathering tools. I will continue to "experiment" with my own guns before doing it for others. Like everyone has said, experience and education are a must.
     

    Leadpot

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    Might have a few tools for you if interested . Holler at me , pm me or even Email request is fine. Some are new and some used ..but it would be a start .
     

    BradSelph

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    TexMex247
    I have a gunsmithing business in Buda TX that is zoned commercial, that is now required by ATF to acquire an FFL. If I could of gotten away doing it out of a shop in my back yard, I would of definitely have done that instead of having one hell of a over head.
     

    mclarenross

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    I have been trying to become a gunsmith for a while now. I have actually come to the conclusion of needing a mechanical engineering degree as well. So I am joining the Marines. Enlisted as a MOS 2111, Small Arms Repairer/Technician. I will be getting my degree while in the Corps. Hopefully I can get a lateral move to MOS 2112, Precision Weapons Repairer/Technician. I leave for MCRD San Diego in August.
     

    AusTex

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    Nov 16, 2008
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    I dont know my ass from my elbow but this is what I have been told.

    First and foremost the firearms industry is a BUSINESS... (before you laugh think about it. How many of you love guns and day dream about doing your own thing? and forget about all that is involved with the industry)

    Very High liability

    Very expensive equipment

    It takes a ton of work and a lot of skill to be respected.

    I was told that chip McCormick was a bouncer at local night club and worked two jobs for years while custom making clips at his kitchen table after he got off work in the early am. Competing in matches on his own dime and trying to sell his products before he made it big.

    Just another thought..
     

    TexMex247

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    I am taking the Chip McCormick route. I have already completely disassembled(not just cleaned and fieldstripped)and upgraded 3 different 10/22s. The upgrades included headspacing the bolts, polishing sears and contact parts, replacing hammers to PC hammers. adding extended bolt handles, auto bolt releases, changing extractors, extended mag releases, rebarreling and replacing sights and finally refinishing a receiver w/KG guncoat. I have heard that it's legal to ship and receive guns to another individual in Texas. For now, I am not trying to work with parts "in the white" so I am only upgrading/modifying my own guns not making them from parts or kits. I added a Nowlin ultra-light trigger, Ed brown extended mag release and wilson combat SS magwell to my SW1911. I own the Kunhausen book on 1911 and have started to "Blue print" mine for future mods. I plan on buying more literature and I will continue to trick out my own stuff. I am a mechanic by trade but did attend college majoring in mechanical engineering. For now, I will continue to work on my own stuff and I also clean guns for my friends(at least 8 different guns so far aside from the 12+ I own) just to better understand how they function. I feel like a "natural" when it comes to this stuff and believe in complete function testing before live ammo ever hits the pipe. I would really like to get my hands on some factory armorers manuals or take a factory course of some kind, I feel like that would push me light years ahead of where I am at now. I still need a lot more specialized tools, all in due time.
     

    TheDan

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    TexMex247
    I have a gunsmithing business in Buda TX that is zoned commercial, that is now required by ATF to acquire an FFL.
    When did they do this? There's a guy in Round Rock that runs a complete firearms shop out of a shed in his backyard. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding you don't need to have a FFL in order to be a gunsmith. Although I'm sure it helps as it allows you to sell guns at your place of business on top of repairing them.
     

    WadeP

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    ATF will tell you absolutely, positively, if you are gunsmithing for profit, you have to have a FFL. I don't think it's ever been challenged in court (I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to make caselaw), but conventional wisdom is that if you're gunsmithing for profit and keeping firearms overnight, you need the FFL. There's certain things that require an FFL and running a serious gunsmithing business - as opposed to working on your own or your friends guns for fun - would be hindered without the license .

    As for working out of a shed in your own backyard, ATF will not approve a FFL application unless you can show that you're in it as a business. They also won't approve an application if your shop is not zoned for commercial businesses. That's what ran a lot of people out of the FFL game twenty years ago.
     

    Aenimated1

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    Mar 17, 2009
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    Carrollton
    I just received my FFL license on May 1st so that I can start my Pistolsmithing practice.

    Here is what I know:

    You absolutely need an FFL to be a gunsmith. No doubt about it.

    A person with an FFL license CAN receive from and then ship directly back to a non-FFL civilian.

    You do not need a brick and mortar building to be a gunsmith or acquire an FFL. The ATF officer that came to visit me stated that something like 30% of the FFLs she awards are to non brick and mortar gunsmiths.

    I work out of my detached garage behind my home in a residential area. I consulted with the local Denton County pencil pushers and they had only two caveats to me opening a business out of my home address. First, I could not have non residents of the home come into the house to work. So only residents can work in their home based business. Second, I could not increase traffic in front of my house from residential levels to commercial zone traffic levels. I asked for clarification of exactly what that constitues and I was told that I basically cannot run a 7-11 out of my house and that my business would probably have grown way too big for my little shop before i had broken this rule. I hope I have that problem soon! :)

    I chose to do mostly self study but supplemented my curriculum with a correspondence course from Penn Foster University. It was affordable and very helpful. It touches on the work that a gunsmith performs as well as how to successfully run a gunsmith business. And a ton of great literature and books come with the course. If I could I would enroll at Murray State in Oklahoma but with two small kids I just can't do it right now. The great thing is I can continue my education at any time.

    I looked at the gunsmithing market before I really jumped into it and decided to specialize in just a few platforms. I chose a make that I thought had plenty of room for improvement as well as a strong and loyal following. So I specialize in Sig Sauer P-series pistols only. After three years of studying I feel ready to start working for the public. I am studying CZs and Berettas right now and should be ready to confidently work on them in a few years.

    Let me know if i can help with any other questions about 'smithing or acquiring your FFL. This forum has been very helpful to me so it is time for me to give back.

    Robert Burke
    Sig Certified Armorer
    FFL Licensee
     

    TexMex247

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    Thanks for all the info and updates on current FFL stuff. It sounds like a dream job if you can make it work. Good luck, you should post some of your work up here a TGT for us to check out(completed projects, etc.).
     

    Aenimated1

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    Mar 17, 2009
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    Here are a few examples but only because you asked

    Here is a pic of a 2007 production Sig Sauer P229 Elite Stainless in .40 cal.
    Here is the mod list so far:

    Barsto Barrels - 357SIG and 9mm
    Bedair Stainless Guide Rod
    Semi-polished Nickel Controls
    Nill Grips
    Sig SRT - Short Reset Trigger

    The above are all drop in parts but the real magic and the reason I am in business is the action. This pistol NIB had a very gritty 11 lb. DA pull and a creepy 4.5 lb. SA pull with excessive overtravel. Although these specs are fine for the average duty pistol, alot of people are wanting more out of their Sigs. So I did a full polish, hone, and chamfering job to all the moving parts. Then I modified the geometry of the action to shorten takeup, eliminate creep, reduce overtravel, and shorten reset. I also moved the SA break point slightly further in the trigger travel to make it more comfortable for my hands. So now it has a delightful 8 lb. DA and 3.5 lb. SA while still utilizing the factory power springs.

    Up next will be sculpting the lower trigger guard and beavertail area at achieve a higher grip on the gun. (Some shooters who are accustomed to Glocks complain about the height of the bore axis on Sigs).

    February09272-1.jpg


    Here is a Sig P220 Carry Beavertail Single Action Only in .45. It is pictured with a ProMag 10 round magazine. It is a "cocked and unlocked" system meaning when the safety is activated the slide remains free to move. This allows the user to load/unload without ever disabling the safety. So it is a wonderful gun to carry condition one.

    But the trigger was another matter. I was hoping for a trigger much like a fine 1911 but what I got was a very watered down and mushy trigger. It had tons of takeup, break was good, but way too much overtravel. A good friend of mine has a Les Baer 1911 that is just fantastic. It has nearly imperceptable takeup ( just enough to disable the FPSB) a very crisp and tactile 2 lb break and absolutely no overtravel. Also the reset was very short and at the point of reseting the sear and not the FPSB. That meant the reset was just as short was wonderful 1911s from the past with no FPSB. Long story short, beautiful trigger. I decided to try to make my 220s trigger just like that Les Baer.

    So I set to work to move the break point back where it should be further in the trigger travel. Then I modified the pistols internal overtravel stop to where I want it. Then I modified the trigger bar and safety lever to work properly at this new break point. Then I modified the trigger to incorporate a takeup stop that keeps the triggers forward travel to just what it needs to reset the system. So I ended up with a trigger that is just like the Les Baer in that it has a 2 lb break with no creep or overtravel. I was not able to get the takeup as short as a 1911 because of the nature of the Sig safety system. It is short for certain but not as short as a 1911.

    I am happy with the product so far. Up next is sculpting the trigger to nearly the same shape as a 1911 trigger.

    Gunpics104.jpg


    BTW, I cant wait to shoot with the TGT group at the next meet so I can put the 220 in the hands of some of you hardcore 1911 guys. I would like your honest reviews.


    Robert
     

    Aenimated1

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    Carrollton
    That is exactly what I was thinking. I am thirty five now and I would like to be a full time brick and mortar gunsmith by the time I am 45. From that point I should hopefully have another 40 or so blissful years behind the smith bench.

    A gunsmith friend of mine stated, when years ago I asked him if there is any money to be made in 'smithing, "You can make a small fortune in gunsmithing, provided you start with a large fortune."
     
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