Best Shotgun for Home Defense?

[Pappy]

The 870 is for racking, but, I do have several pistols that are ready to go bang, without action noise, should the need arise....

 

[BT1911]

Ahh I see. I've never had to take it that far, my dogs always handle it for me.

+1 on man's best friend. I really think scum intruders are more scared of a dog's bark than the sound of a shotgun, or anything else, being chambered.

 

[TexasT/A]

+1 on man's best friend. I really think scum intruders are more scared of a dog's bark than the sound of a shotgun, or anything else, being chambered.

Definitely.

 

[ReVrEnD_0341]

\

I live in Dallas.

With a good Open Tip Match(OTM, fancy term for JHP), there is a reduced risk of overpentration, even in a miss. This is especially the case with 5.56x45/.223Rem. It is such that Dallas PD SWAT only uses shotguns for breaching now.

Now consider the virtues:

Lightweight(even w/ a light source)
More compact
20-30rd magazine
Faster relaods
Less recoil
Less muzzle rise
Easier to acquire sights
Ability to defeat armor

The vesatility alone makes the carbine the superior choice. You can engage multiple bad guys, faster, more accurately. Lets face it, thats how bad guys are coming now days, in groups, not solo. Furthermore, they are often wearing body armor(this is evidant in two home invasion shootings in Dallas, both times homeowners used a carbine, both times multiple baddies were stopped, both time baddies were wearing vests.).

You seem to not understand the concept of open tip rifle rounds and JHP. An open tip, or hollow point rifle round is for increased accuracy. It makes the round more stable in the air, and does nothing in regards to expansion. In fact, most like the sierra match king rounds do not expand quite as much as other rifle rounds. A JHP on the other hand is designed specifically to have greater expansion. JHP are also only hand gun munitions...

The argument of less overpenetration you have for a rifle round that flows through the air at over 2700fps is thrown through the window when you bring up the point of a rifle round being able to defeat body armor. Do you see where I am going here? Unless you have reinforced concrete or steal plate behind the drywall in your walls, if you miss someone, you can bet your bottom dollar that the round is going through your walls and into your neighbors. When I can take a 5.56x45mm round and put it through a .50BMG ammo can full of packed sand, I can tell you it will go through drywall no problem. They also fly through an entire mud hut in Iraq quite nicely.

Remember. This thread is about shotguns for home defense. Not a shotty vs. carbine for home defense thread.

A pistol or shotgun is great for home defense. Heavy dove shot will also suffice. Ask the dead fellows in Houston how well it put them down. Never mind, they are dead. 870's are battle tested sweet. I wish the Corps would have stuck with them, but alas gadgets abound these days.

Just remember folks. It is very easy to short stroke a shotty when the adrenaline is pumping. Practice with that thing until it is in your muscle memory. If you fear you might short stroke it, and not chamber a round when it counts, but a semi auto shotty. Saiga S12's are pretty cool. Just food for thought.

 

[Kaptain Kolache]

You seem to not understand the concept of open tip rifle rounds and JHP. An open tip, or hollow point rifle round is for increased accuracy. It makes the round more stable in the air, and does nothing in regards to expansion. In fact, most like the sierra match king rounds do not expand quite as much as other rifle rounds. A JHP on the other hand is designed specifically to have greater expansion. JHP are also only hand gun munitions...

No sir, I understand exacty what OTMs do. I understand what the ar for. I also understand that as an ancillary benefit, they also have excellent fragmntation, which is caused when one expands.

Here is what a SMK round does: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001370

The argument of less overpenetration you have for a rifle round that flows through the air at over 2700fps is thrown through the window when you bring up the point of a rifle round being able to defeat body armor. Do you see where I am going here? Unless you have reinforced concrete or steal plate behind the drywall in your walls, if you miss someone, you can bet your bottom dollar that the round is going through your walls and into your neighbors. When I can take a 5.56x45mm round and put it through a .50BMG ammo can full of packed sand, I can tell you it will go through drywall no problem. They also fly through an entire mud hut in Iraq quite nicely.

To be honest, I dont think you see where you are going with this argument.

You are claiming that a 5.56x45/.223Rem with say an OTM will fly through both sides of an armored individual. That is false. See the link I provided above.

You are claiming that same said round will run through numerous drywall walls. This is also false, as it smacks against all testing done by various depts who use such weapons in their various SWAT teams and general patrol issue. If this was the case, you wouldnt see ARs in cruisers, but you do. You wouldnt see SWAT teams raiding houses wit these weapons, but you do.

When speaking of a 5.56x45/.223Rem chambered rifles, the round is going so fast, but its still a lightweight pojectile. It begins to disrupt itself, tearing itsef apart. That is why there is a reduced hazard of overpentration.

In additon to the link posted, you might alsoi check out www.firearmstactical.com

Remember. This thread is about shotguns for home defense. Not a shotty vs. carbine for home defense thread.

Its about home defense. Period.

A pistol or shotgun is great for home defense. Heavy dove shot will also suffice. Ask the dead fellows in Houston how well it put them down. Never mind, they are dead. 870's are battle tested sweet. I wish the Corps would have stuck with them, but alas gadgets abound these days.

I will link to a fellow Texan who has shown exactly why birdshot of anykind is wholly inadquate for self defense. You are doing a dis-service to the folk reading your post reccomending birdshot for defense. It lacks penetration in the human body to be relied upon to stop. Ask PDs why they nver use birdshot to stop aggression. Then ask PDs why they went away fom pistol caliber carbines in favor of intemediate battle cartridges like 5.56x45/.223Rem. We know why they carry handguns, because of convenience.

And if you are refernceing Joe Horn, shooting people in the back is not something I would tout. The spinal column, and many vital organs are of mor accessability frm he back than fom the front or sides. Furthermore, we dont know what load he used.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

 

[308nato]

I keep a Winchester 1300 Defender handy .
I bought it about 15 years ago and have put about 15 practise rds
threw it .Its a nice little shotgun.

 

[DrBart2]

+1 on man's best friend. I really think scum intruders are more scared of a dog's bark than the sound of a shotgun, or anything else, being chambered.

I messed up on that. I have a Basenji. It is a dog that doesn't bark. Not a very effective guard dog! Guess I will have to stick to my guns. I have a Mossberg 930 Tactical and my wife backs me up with a XD 45. We train on a regular basis moving through the house with the guns.

 

[JKTex]

Another Mossberg here. 18" but ya, still a little big to move around quick, but the best thing for home defense.

Loaded with 5 rds: #1 and #2 are 0 buck, #3 and #4 are 00 Buck and #5 is 000 Magnum, in case I need to get through the wall of course.

 

[ReVrEnD_0341]

No sir, I understand exacty what OTMs do. I understand what the ar for. I also understand that as an ancillary benefit, they also have excellent fragmntation, which is caused when one expands.

Here is what a SMK round does: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001370

Yep, they fragment. OTM's, and 5.56mm rounds in general fragment. Great for secondary wound cavitation after initial devistation. Just like I said... NOT a Jacketed hollow point. A JHP round is meant to expand while staying in tact and keeping as much of its weight as possible. Like I said OTM/BTHP does not, in any way "just" equal JHP. Completely different round.

You are claiming that a 5.56x45/.223Rem with say an OTM will fly through both sides of an armored individual. That is false. See the link I provided above.

Nowhere did I state that any 5.56mm/.223 round would go through both sides of an armored individual.

You are claiming that same said round will run through numerous drywall walls. This is also false, as it smacks against all testing done by various depts who use such weapons in their various SWAT teams and general patrol issue. If this was the case, you wouldnt see ARs in cruisers, but you do. You wouldnt see SWAT teams raiding houses wit these weapons, but you do.

The statement you are referring to had nothing to do with shooting through an individual and continuing to go through walls. I very specifically stated that if you miss, you can bet your bottom dollar that 5.56mm/.223 round is going through a bunch of walls.

When LEO's adopted the use of the AR, it was not because of some misguided effort about overpenetration. There was ONE, I'll say it again ONE encounter that led to the adoption of the weapons system. It was when several folks armed with "evil assault weapons" and wearing body armor robbed a bank in Hollywood. THAT led to the total adoption of the round and rifle by almost all departments in the US. The ability to defeat body armor with the round.

Both AR's, and shotguns are used by the police. SWAT and patrol alike. Some prefer one over the other, some have both, and they have different intended uses. The AR is not the end all be all of fire arms. It has its place, but other weapons are better in different situations.

When speaking of a 5.56x45/.223Rem chambered rifles, the round is going so fast, but its still a lightweight pojectile. It begins to disrupt itself, tearing itsef apart. That is why there is a reduced hazard of overpentration.

In additon to the link posted, you might also check out www.firearmstactical.com

It is common knowledge of how this projectile was designed, and that once it impacts something it tumbles and fragments.

Its about home defense. Period.

This thread is about the discussion on the use of shotguns for defensive purposes. This thread should have stayed on topic. I understand you are playing the antagonist here, but I'll disagree.

I don't care if you would rather use a carbine in home defense over a shotgun. That is not what this thread is about. The argument of carbine or shotty is just like the argument on caliber size in pistols. It goes nowhere, someone spouts off alot of stupid crap no-one wants to read, and the thread eventually goes off topic with a bunch of insults, post editing, thread lockage, and the banning of members of the forum.

Want to argue shotty vs. carbine. Go make a thread about it.

I will link to a fellow Texan who has shown exactly why birdshot of anykind is wholly inadquate for self defense. You are doing a dis-service to the folk reading your post reccomending birdshot for defense. It lacks penetration in the human body to be relied upon to stop. Ask PDs why they nver use birdshot to stop aggression. Then ask PDs why they went away fom pistol caliber carbines in favor of intemediate battle cartridges like 5.56x45/.223Rem. We know why they carry handguns, because of convenience.

If you are reffering to the good man from the box of truth, he really did not conclude a dang thing on bird shot. In fact, I think he made a perfect blunder in his article. He states that a person cannot be killed by bird shot, or even BB guns. If you cannot kill a person with said munitions, then why do we have people getting killed by them every year? The man does some cool stuff, but some of his logic is skewed to say the least.

If bird shot is all you have, then use it. If I could not lake the life of a person with heavy dove, then the shotgun training I have had would not have taught me differently. The simple fact is alot of shotgun munitions are not center mass take down queens. The shotty is a surgical weapon just as much as any other.

If you are using a "sub-standard defensive load" with a shotty, you do not shoot for center mass. Instead you aim low. Shots to the stomach, pelvic and hip area, and inside the legs where the femoral artery is exposed. You can also aim for the neck/throat area. All of these shots can be, and are lethal shots with any load from a shotgun.

Remember, it only takes a projectile moving at 350fps to break through the skin of a human being. Thus, it only takes a projectile moving at 350fps to be lethal to a human being. It might not be IDEAL, but shot placement is key, and it can be done by a well trained individual.

You are doing a dis-service to this forum by conducting yourself like mall ninjas on every other forum. Please do not be a parasite on Texas Gun Talk.

And if you are refernceing Joe Horn, shooting people in the back is not something I would tout. The spinal column, and many vital organs are of mor accessability frm he back than fom the front or sides. Furthermore, we dont know what load he used.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

And what about Joe Horn? I'll tout what ever I feel like touting thank you much. I'm not defending what he did. What has happened to the initial reports from the medical examiner after the shooting. When it was aired on KVUE news, they were saying he shot these dirt bags with a common bird hunting round, and that they were shot in the chest and side. Now we have an officer saying they were shot in the back. Well, I don't care if he shot them in the back.

To tell you the truth it doesn't bother me that he killed them at all. Convicted criminals from another country, in our country illegally, and committing felonious acts in broad day light. I'm just glad someone had the nerve to go take care of business so my money doesn't have to be spent feeding these stupid people who would have eventually been let back out into society to continue in their criminal ways.

I'm sure that will offend some sensibilities, but take it to another thread if someone has a problem with it.

Back on topic:

I think shotties are great for defense. The 870 and Mossbergs are proven tried and true to be great shotties. Benneli has put out some great shotguns as well. It all boiled down to what you are comfortable with, familiar with, and can use like a robot in sticky situations.

 

[Texas1911]

Please keep it civil, the point regarding Carbines has been made, and even argued. This has begun to carry off-topic and I will delete any subsequent postings not regarding shotguns.

 

[JKTex]

I used to keep 4 shot in mine. I did so after an incident many years ago where I found myself 2nd guessing the load I had, after I racked it and had it aimed.

I realized that if I was not 100% confident in the load I was using, I shouldn't have the shotty in my hand when it came time to go to work. Picking a load for home defense is something you think about, discuss, ponder, mill over and become 100% comfortable with, when you're in a situation where you don't need it and not in the seconds you need it. You should have enough confidence that you should only be thinking about the target and good shot placement.

It's like buying tires for your car. You decide and pick the tires best suited to your needs and don't worry or think about it wen you're driving. If you put bicycle tires on your car, the wrong time to decide they aren't right for you needs is not when doing 75 MPH down the HWY in heavy traffic.

In my case, I was lucky and didn't have matched risk, so the delay in time/hesitation I took to think about the load and possible and unnecessary collateral damage didn't cost me my life, that time. And there was colateral damage but minor and somewhat insignificant.

It was a lesson in having the right weapon and load as well as making the right decision and determining the appropriate POI.

It's easy to read articles and books, attend training, shoot at the range and buy all the right things for defense. It's in that second when you're faced with using all that when you realize it's not always that easy.

If it's for home defense, I think it's a good idea to walk around your house and imagine shooting "in" your house and picture what will be hit, what interior and exterior walls will or might be penetrated and what rooms will be impacted by that penetration. It also helps you mentally plan for what to do in the case you have to defend your family. You certainly want to know how best to take out a bad guy that just came through the front door, so you don't penetrate your child's bedroom wall for example.

 

[texaspartsman]

If you come to my house and enter with out permission you are going to be looking down the barrel of my SAIGA 12 gauge, 0 Buck headed your way. Unless I am feeling charitable and don't want to spend two days cleaning you off the wall. Then its the PS90 with SS192, after 50 rounds I'll just tell the police it was a shotgun.
When my wife sees the mess then you're really going to be in trouble....

 

[zembonez]

after 50 rounds I'll just tell the police it was a shotgun.

 

[DEFKON99]

mossberg 500 or maverick 88 ( same thing) pretty good for not much money and you can mod um up real nice.

 

[Gear Head]

Not counting saigas, spas-12's or anything gnarly, and the fact that "home defense" normally means a minimal investment, and a gun that will stay untouched for very very long periods of time..

1200's are lighter and more manuverable than an 870 so I'd say its a good choice for home defense, or a shotgun you will seldom shoot. The 1200 is also easier to run if someone doesn't plan to get familiar with it, as I've seen people have trouble with the 870 action release. I'd go with a 1200, though the 870 is much tougher, and probably more accurate.

I'm seriously considering investing in a KAC 870 Masterkey, speaking of carbine/shotgun debates.

 

[Texas1911]

I personally will become familiar with any weapon that I intend to trust my life to.

 

[Gear Head]

For home defense the 870 can shoot much much heavier loads than a 1200, or atleast last alot longer doing so. Everything will always come down to personal preference.

 

[DEFKON99]

sorry for the noobish post but whats a 1200 look like link to photo of 1 with specs?

 

[Gear Head]

Look up a "12 gauge defender" You'll know it when you see it. I'd post a picture but I'm litterally walking out the door.

 

[DEFKON99]

yea i just had a Thought Winchester and yea i see it now.