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  • jordanmills

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    I meant to post this a few days ago before a lot of the publicity, but I got busy.

    Say you were selling a gun and I offered to pay in bitcoin. What would you think and tell me? Of course I'm willing to let you examine proof that I'm an adult resident of Texas and have never been convicted of a felony.

    Edit:

    This kind of turned into a Q&A, then a point/counterpoint, and got some random trolling mixed in. I really would like to hear the initial reaction and opinion of some regular users who have no need to be very technical. Even if I think it's incorrect, it helps me understand how non-tech people see it and are inclined to interact with it right now.
    Hurley's Gold
     
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    Southpaw

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    I don't even do PayPal so, probably not. But I'm no techie, so that doesn't say much.

    Seems a bit unstable still to me, didn't the value of 1 bitcoin just double it's value over the course of a few weeks? Would suck to be on the opposite end of that event.
     

    IXLR8

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    I find it difficult to believe that anyone unfamiliar with Bitcoin would accept it. I would estimate that 2% of firearm purchasers would accept it as a form of payment. Then, settling on an amount would be difficult. The exchanges I have found will sell you a Bitcoin for $220.00 but only offer you $20.00 US for one.
    A few weeks ago I tried "mining" for Bitcoins. The Titan graphics card in my PC has 2048 processors, hashing 350mil/hashes a second. In 48 hours I earned 9 cents, with a single Bitcoin being the smallest amount I could withdraw from a collective of Bitminers. It would have taken years to earn one. The electricity was far more expensive. I gave up....
     

    jordanmills

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    I don't even do PayPal so, probably not. But I'm no techie, so that doesn't say much.

    Seems a bit unstable still to me, didn't the value of 1 bitcoin just double it's value over the course of a few weeks? Would suck to be on the opposite end of that event.

    I don't do paypal at all. It's too easy to get screwed over. A nice thing about bitcoin is that transactions can't be reversed. Well, it's nice as long as you know what you're getting into. If there is less trust between two parties, there are plenty of individuals and services that perform escrow for a fee.

    It's definitely volatile. The recent volatility is due to US senate hearings about its legitimacy (senators claim to be excited about it in a good way) and a new exchange opening up in china leading to a huge demand for more of the finite supply.

    It's designed to be deflationary, though, so increase in value with time is expected, in general.
     

    jordanmills

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    I find it difficult to believe that anyone unfamiliar with Bitcoin would accept it. I would estimate that 2% of firearm purchasers would accept it as a form of payment. Then, settling on an amount would be difficult. The exchanges I have found will sell you a Bitcoin for $220.00 but only offer you $20.00 US for one.
    A few weeks ago I tried "mining" for Bitcoins. The Titan graphics card in my PC has 2048 processors, hashing 350mil/hashes a second. In 48 hours I earned 9 cents, with a single Bitcoin being the smallest amount I could withdraw from a collective of Bitminers. It would have taken years to earn one. The electricity was far more expensive. I gave up....

    I would encourage anyone not familiar with it to not accept it. It's just asking to get screwed over. The point of the thread is more to gauge how likely people here are to be familiar with it enough to accept it. I've been trying to get my LGS interested in selling online and accepting it for a year or two now.

    Mining is not going to be easy for an individual. The GPUs in video cards are nowhere near as efficient as the FPGAs and ASICs soon used by big mining operations. People used to mine on CPUs (which got them about 0.1-0.5 Mhash/sec), then on GPUs (5-500 Mhash/sec), and now on FPGAs (100-300 Mhash/sec), and some time soon on ASICs (1000-2000 Mhash/sec). Problem is that at the lower levels, they use a lot more power per hash, which is expensive. The reason it used to be profitable to mine with CPUs and GPUs is that the protocol adjusts difficulty (how many hashes on average need to be run to find a hash that meets the next block's requirements) based on how much mining is going on. So it's a constant arms race. Unless you're running a large company or pool, mining is not worth it.
     

    Southpaw

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    I'm glad you brought this up, because I did have a few questions and you guys seem to know. (pardon me as this is a bit above my pay grade)

    I have read that there can only be an finite number available mined or created and it takes a significant investment to mine them with any efficiency. So, at some point, and possibly right now, wouldn't there wind up being a only a few entities or people that control the flow and price of it? And how would that differ from our currency today, in as far as manipulation of it, depending upon what would be good for the few that have that control?

    The article I read said that a bitcoin is now worth around $600+, however a few weeks ago, it was half of that. That's a pretty drastic swing. Are you saying that it wasn't a jump rather a valuation that was inevitable with the exchange being set up and the publicity? Also, that it could not drop in value by that same amount at any given moment within the same time period?

    And my mention of PayPal was really just a reference to me not being so savvy.. :green:


    Thanks again for bringing this up.
     

    ZX9RCAM

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    All this talk of mining, how does the average person get Bitcoin?

    I saw an article a few days ago about "Joe Blow" & his GF travelling the world using bitcoin.
     

    IXLR8

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    You were correct saying there is a finite number of Bitcoins. The current estimate is to have found the last one by 2040. This does not appeal to the Government, since they cannot produce more, nor can they easily track or tax them. Last month Wired magazine covered a lot of information about miners, drug dealers, money launderers, and international money smugglers using Bitcoins. This may or may not be a form of payment that you want to be associated with.
     
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    Anger

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    no thanks. another internet fraud thing, look at the stock valuation. also wait for the feds to crack down. bitcoin was used by small time drug dealers to pay for drugs online and have them shipped by another type service, now defunct under investigation. Ammo, Guns, Land, Things, Silver, Gold, Greenbacks, in that order.
     

    jordanmills

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    I'm glad you brought this up, because I did have a few questions and you guys seem to know. (pardon me as this is a bit above my pay grade)

    I have read that there can only be an finite number available mined or created and it takes a significant investment to mine them with any efficiency. So, at some point, and possibly right now, wouldn't there wind up being a only a few entities or people that control the flow and price of it? And how would that differ from our currency today, in as far as manipulation of it, depending upon what would be good for the few that have that control?

    The article I read said that a bitcoin is now worth around $600+, however a few weeks ago, it was half of that. That's a pretty drastic swing. Are you saying that it wasn't a jump rather a valuation that was inevitable with the exchange being set up and the publicity? Also, that it could not drop in value by that same amount at any given moment within the same time period?

    And my mention of PayPal was really just a reference to me not being so savvy.. :green:


    Thanks again for bringing this up.

    Glad to answer what I can. You can find a lot of stuff in the most popular FAQ: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ

    There will only be about 21 million mined total and the last reward block will be mined in late summer of 2140. The reward will be 0.00000001 BTC. It would technically be possible for an entity to buy every available balance, but not practically possible. Many balances have been permanently lost and many others are being kept dormant, with no way to tell them apart. Many people who have them now would not sell to an entity making an effort at consolidation at any price. And more can be mined for the next hundred thirty-six years. Even if you did control the entire supply at any instant, you would not necessarily control the generation or transactions. Mining blocks is completely separate and most miners will not include transactions that don't "tip" the miners a small amount (Used to be 0.01, now it's usually 0.0001 or about six cents). Due to issues like theft and confiscation, many miners refuse to process transactions for addresses known to have stolen balances.

    That's what I'm saying. I think that most of the recent value spike is demand on a finite supply caused by increased publicity and accessibility. Remember that the currency is young and is basically near the end of its bootstrapping phase. It's likely that there will be a few more spikes or bubbles defining a wild increase in value as the nerds in large groups of people get access (i.e. happened in china this week), then a slow but steady increase in value as the non-nerds get on board and density of use in those areas increases (i.e. jing sixpack decides to take bitcoins for his rice crops). It's possible that it will drop in value, but with the huge amount of positive publicity recently in our federal government and the huge amount of demand in china for a viable international currency, it is very unlikely that it will drop drastically. That said, I am not going to nor would I advise you to put a huge investment into it. Yes we'd probably make a lot of money but I don't think the risk is acceptable. To that point, there are no regulatory bodies that control or insure your balances.
     

    jordanmills

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    All this talk of mining, how does the average person get Bitcoin?

    I saw an article a few days ago about "Joe Blow" & his GF travelling the world using bitcoin.

    The average person does not get them by mining. Used to be you could, but that game is closed to all but the big players.

    Easiest way is on LocalBitcoins.com. Coinbase is popular too, but they've been bought out and won't have more available until Monday from what I can tell. You can also do all sorts of funky stuff with exchanges like BTC-E, Bitstamp, MtGox, and the like. But they require sending in copies of your ID and documents and bills to prove who you are for regulatory compliance.

    If you want them, I'll sell them to you (I'm pretty active on LocalBitcoins), but make sure you understand before you throw money at me. I'd hate to see you mortgage your house to "invest" in bitcoin then have the value drop by 90%.

    If you have goods or services, you can also sell them in markets like bitcoin-otc (#bitcoin-otc order book). I've sold ammo and listed guns on there.
     

    Younggun

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    WTF is a bitcoin. Sounds like money that doesn't exist.


    Wait, that's what the government is running on.



    Honestly, I will not trade in anything I can't hold in my hand. And something made from a computer processor and existing only in wires. Sounds like "nope money" to me.
     

    jordanmills

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    You were correct saying there is a finite number of Bitcoins. The current estimate is to have found the last one by 2040. This does not appeal to the Government, since they cannot produce more, nor can they easily track or tax them. Last month Wired magazine covered a lot of information about miners, drug dealers, money launderers, and international money smugglers using Bitcoins. This may or may not be a form of payment that you want to be associated with.

    It's 2140, I believe. One of the main points in creating the currency was that the supply is finite and well known. They can be tracked very easily though. The entire transaction record is public.

    US dollars are the reserve currency of every warmongering nation in the world and universally used by drug dealers, money launders, and international smugglers. If that's your metric for concern, then you should consider closing all your domestic bank accounts immediately.
     

    jordanmills

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    no thanks. another internet fraud thing, look at the stock valuation. also wait for the feds to crack down. bitcoin was used by small time drug dealers to pay for drugs online and have them shipped by another type service, now defunct under investigation. Ammo, Guns, Land, Things, Silver, Gold, Greenbacks, in that order.

    There is no stock to value. The federal government is generally very supportive. Ammo and guns are also commonly used as currency by drug dealers making international purchases. Are you sure you want to be involved in that?
     

    jordanmills

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    WTF is a bitcoin. Sounds like money that doesn't exist.


    Wait, that's what the government is running on.



    Honestly, I will not trade in anything I can't hold in my hand. And something made from a computer processor and existing only in wires. Sounds like "nope money" to me.

    It's a value in a transaction register. Same thing as your bank account.

    What's special about holding it in your hand? Not trying to be a dick, I'm actually interested in how that makes you perceive value in it.
     

    Anger

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    There is no stock to value. The federal government is generally very supportive. Ammo and guns are also commonly used as currency by drug dealers making international purchases. Are you sure you want to be involved in that?

    ok, you got me, it's nt a "stock value" but look at the valuation over time $BTCUSD Bitcoin USD stock and investing information on StockTwits (BTCUSD)

    "The federal government is generally very supportive" Proof? I doubt this totaliarian control government is " generally very supportive"

    Bro, you're smoking the good stuff if you thing bitcoin is being used for the general "good" of society.
     

    Younggun

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    I can go to my bank and have them put cash in my hand equal to the amount shown. I know the rate at high it's value is decreasing, and can exchange it readily for goods or service with 99.999% of the US population and most non-US companies.

    The numbers on my bank account represent an actual physical currency. I realize that this currency only has the value another believes it to have but I can exchange it much more readily than a bitcoin for physical goods that are necessities for life and will always have alvalue value for that reason.

    Also, the idea of "mining" a bitcoin sounds outright ridiculous. If it doesn't exist how is it mined. Who says how many can be made, what's to stop a hacking group such as anonymous from flossing the market with fake nonexistent currency.

    The whole basis for its value is that it is only supposed to be made available at a specific rate. That's great except that most other currencies start out with the same plan....until somebody important needs more. Then the market starts to get "adjusted" and it becomes just as screwed up as the current currencies and inflation takes over.


    Maybe I'm not smart enough for these new fangled funny monies, but common sense tells me it's a disaster looking for a victim.
     
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