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CCW Safe Vs Texas Law Shield?

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  • Booyah

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    I have searched but did not find any discussions regarding this particular service: CCW Safe. I am currently a member of Texas Law Shield and I have seen various discussion regarding that service on this and other forums. I am not particularly interested in a discussion of the merits of this type of service in general, I am looking for some perspective (outside of my own) on the pros v cons of the CCW safe service compared to other services (TLS specifically). I have started researching, reading their marketing info and their terms of service, and I am starting to develop my own opinion but would appreciate hearing what others think.
    DK Firearms
     

    jamesbtowle

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    OK 1st....your buying Insurance against the day you may make the wrong decision. It has been my experience that if you are not sure if you should "Draw or Retreat".....retreat and become the best witness LE has when they arrive. You are not LE therefore you are not duty bound to act in the name of the Law. If you are out in the public arena and your life is suddenly in danger or your family...react accordingly. Do not initiate the gunfight unless your life or another's is in danger and Do not pursue the criminal if he is leaving the scene. #2. Since none of these Gun Insurance companies will come on camera and discuss the details of the policy....I'm not interested. This may not be the answer your seeking sir...but it's the best answer I have to your question. Good Luck..Be Safe, Be Trained..Be Alert.
     

    Younggun

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    OK 1st....your buying Insurance against the day you may make the wrong decision. It has been my experience that if you are not sure if you should "Draw or Retreat".....retreat and become the best witness LE has when they arrive. You are not LE therefore you are not duty bound to act in the name of the Law. If you are out in the public arena and your life is suddenly in danger or your family...react accordingly. Do not initiate the gunfight unless your life or another's is in danger and Do not pursue the criminal if he is leaving the scene. #2. Since none of these Gun Insurance companies will come on camera and discuss the details of the policy....I'm not interested. This may not be the answer your seeking sir...but it's the best answer I have to your question. Good Luck..Be Safe, Be Trained..Be Alert.

    A completely justified shoot that saves you from certain death could still cost tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.


    It has nothing to do with making a "wrong" decision.
     

    Leper

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    I guess James didn't read the part about not wanting to discuss the merit if this type of service. I am a tls member, I will look into ccw safe.
     

    Booyah

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    Please do let me know what you think. My over all impression so far is positive...same basic service maybe a bit cheaper and wider coverage geographically...but then I put on my paranoid lawyer thinking cap and try to find 'the catch'. I'm interested in what others think.
     

    Robb in Austin

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    In reading the CCW Safe site, I see that they state(under the single membership area):

    "By remitting membership payment, buyer is purchasing the rights to services for representation of one person in any legal matter stemming from a use of force incident pursuant to a duly licensed in good standing concealed carry weapon permit for one year from the date of this acknowledgement. "

    and then

    "Recognized use of force incidents include both civil, criminal and administrative actions taken by a STATE, LOCAL OR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR REGULATORY AGENCY which administers a state’s concealed carry permit system"(emphasis mine)

    This sounds like legal mumbo jumbo to say they will NOT protect you from private lawyers suing on behalf of who ever you shot. But maybe I'm reading this wrong.

    That said, I liked the CCW site better and then I looked at the TLS site and noticed it has changed since the last time I looked. There is a ton more info on the TLS site than there was 8 months ago. The thing that would push me more towards TLS, and I don't currently use their services, is being Texas based.
     

    Booyah

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    Thanks Rob...that is a good point and exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. I intend to put together a list of questions to ask when I call them to inquire more.

    Something I noticed was their use, more than once, of the phrase "critical self defense incident". This makes me wonder if, even though various state laws may allow use of force for defense of property, that they will not represent such a case...only self-defense?

    I also agree that the firm being based out of state gives me pause as well. The thing that is keeping my interest though is that they do have a presence in Texas...one of their lawyers is based out of Dallas.
     

    txinvestigator

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    OK 1st....your buying Insurance against the day you may make the wrong decision. It has been my experience that if you are not sure if you should "Draw or Retreat".....retreat and become the best witness LE has when they arrive. You are not LE therefore you are not duty bound to act in the name of the Law. If you are out in the public arena and your life is suddenly in danger or your family...react accordingly. Do not initiate the gunfight unless your life or another's is in danger and Do not pursue the criminal if he is leaving the scene. #2. Since none of these Gun Insurance companies will come on camera and discuss the details of the policy....I'm not interested. This may not be the answer your seeking sir...but it's the best answer I have to your question. Good Luck..Be Safe, Be Trained..Be Alert.

    Full of fail
     

    CitizenSeven

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    Perhaps I'm misreading it, but I interpret what the OP quoted was that:

    Recognized use of force incidents include both

    1. civil
    2. criminal and administrative actions taken by a STATE, LOCAL OR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR REGULATORY AGENCY which administers a state’s concealed carry permit system

    So, that would mean civil (what another person would bring against you) or just about anything a government entity would.

    The thing that is keeping my interest though is that they do have a presence in Texas...one of their lawyers is based out of Dallas.

    TLS claims to have a vast network of lawyers, but they wouldn't give me a list when I was a member and asked. That did not sit well with me, but YMMV. If one of the principles for CCW is based out of Dallas, and you live in Dallas, that bodes better as presumably you'd have more (but not guaranteed) of a chance of getting one of the names if you had need. Although, who knows, they might have a dubious stable based in Dallas and you'd wind up hiring your own anyway. As always, read the actual contract and what you can get/find in writing at third party sources, and not anecdotes at gun shows/CHL classes/message boards that begin "I knew a guy...".
     

    Robb in Austin

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    I think one thing any legal service company could do to bolster their case would be to post a JPEG of a judgement/dismissal from a DA/rejected indictment/etc they helped bring about with the defendants name blacked out and with the company/lawyers name listed. Actual proof.

    Or a testimonial, with details, from someone who used their service other than the brief blurbs on their sites.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I think one thing any legal service company could do to bolster their case would be to post a JPEG of a judgement/dismissal from a DA/rejected indictment/etc they helped bring about with the defendants name blacked out and with the company/lawyers name listed. Actual proof.

    Or a testimonial, with details, from someone who used their service other than the brief blurbs on their sites.
    Check out TLS' website and newsletters. Plenty of cases.
     

    benenglish

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    This topic was covered in more depth than most salesmen are willing to plumb at the recent Gun Rights Policy Conference in Houston. The particular post where Sean was covering the proceeding live is here: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/...hts-policy-conference-houston.html#post795395

    I'll try to restate what I heard based on my recollection and Sean's excellent notes.

    First, there's the need for insurance. That's obvious and you've accepted it. Deciding on a carrier and understanding the details gets tricky.

    As a side note, homeowners insurance can be a big help if it includes "reasonable force coverage". Personally, I'm retired but I used to carry a separate professional liability policy for things that happened on the job. Your homeowners insurance folks might also be able to write a personal umbrella policy for the use of reasonable force when you're away from home. Homeowners or other liability insurance is also about the only option for protecting yourself from civil liability issues following a use of reasonable force.

    Million dollar claims are common in civil actions. Make sure you have enough coverage.

    Now, to actually get back on topic, there are insurance products like Texas Law Shield, CCW Safe, and Defender's Choice. When choosing between them, there are some things to consider. Basically, I got just three major points from the presentations.

    First, since these types of legal defense policies are designed to help you with legal expenses, like lawyers and everything that lawyers must spend money on to help you, it's important to know when they pay. Some policies are written such that they assume you've committed a crime when you use a gun (a "criminal act defense policy"). They don't pay until they're sure you're not guilty of a crime. IOW, you must bear all expenses up front, go through a trial (or however far the authorities decide to take things before they drop the matter) and ONLY THEN do the policies pay you for the money you were forking over during the entire process. A fat lot of good that does since you might well be bankrupt by that time. A useful policy will pay as expenses are incurred, so ask *exactly* when the policy pays.

    Second, you should be able to hire an attorney that you choose. Something along the lines of "Pre-Paid Legal Services" (I had family involved with them a long time ago, so I'm wary of anything remotely resembling that organization) may require you to use their attorney. Their attorney will be motivated to keep claims and costs low because their attorney works, well, for them instead of you. You'll have to decide if the answer is a deal breaker for you or not, but be sure to at least ask if you get to hire your own attorney.

    Third and finally, many such policies narrowly define the use of a firearm in self-defense. If you don't actually fire the thing, they don't cover you. That's unacceptable. Hopefully, if you're ever in a really bad situation, the bad guy will see your gun and run away so fast you won't have to or be able to shoot him. What if a bystander then calls the police and reports that they just saw someone threaten someone else with a gun? You have your story, the witness has theirs, the bad guy is gone (and will lie if he can be found, anyway) and the prosecutor may be wanting a show trial (if you're really unlucky). Even though I didn't realize it until it was explained at the conference, ask and make sure that the policy covers you even if you DON'T shoot.

    Hope this helps.
     

    Shotgun Jeremy

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    Its my understanding that Texas Law Shield is a subsidiary of US Law Shield. So that leads me to believe that the Texas Law Shield folks are actually US Law Shield reps who specialize in Texas. That may be part of why its hard to find info on their lawyers. Also, I think when you sign up for the national plan-you're just getting the US Law Shield plan under the TLS name.

    I have TLS. I found out about US Law Shield when trying to help an out of state friend find a similar program.
     

    karlac

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    Its my understanding that Texas Law Shield is a subsidiary of US Law Shield. So that leads me to believe that the Texas Law Shield folks are actually US Law Shield reps who specialize in Texas. That may be part of why its hard to find info on their lawyers. Also, I think when you sign up for the national plan-you're just getting the US Law Shield plan under the TLS name.

    I have TLS. I found out about US Law Shield when trying to help an out of state friend find a similar program.

    it is my understanding that US Law Shield is actually an expansion of TLS, a Texas LLP. Go to uslawshield.com, pick a state, then "Who We Are"' and the yellow brick road leads to the TLS genesis in 2009.

    Not an endorsement. That said, I also belong to TLS, but it was not an easy decision, and you'll never know 'til the fat lady sings.
     

    Robb in Austin

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    Check out TLS' website and newsletters. Plenty of cases.

    I'll disagree that there are plenty of cases.

    The website lists some vague 'they helped' or 'thanks for the newsletters' etc. I did see one newsletter from 6/21/13 with lots of 'member had charges dismissed/no billed/etc' but nothing specific. The rest seemed more informative than anything. Again, I'd like to see Joe Public post something, separate from the website preferably, with a 'I used my gun(shot fired or not), was arrested, charged, dismissed' and was represented by TLS/CCW/etc and didn't have to pay a dime'. I _do_ get that Joe Public may not want his/her name out there but actual images of court documents with names blacked out, except for the attorney who is a part of TLS/CCW/etc would go along way.

    I've seen you state 'I personally know of individuals helped by TLS'; which admittedly makes me feel somewhat better about them but I'd still like to see proof myself before putting cash on the barrel head.

    We all have experience of State Farm/All State/etc paying out. TLS and the like have a much smaller population to pull 'evidence' from but I've still yet to see what I'd call proof and that makes me leery. All I've seen is anecdotal proof at best, IMO. No, $130 wont break the family budget but it's not small change either.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I'll disagree that there are plenty of cases.

    The website lists some vague 'they helped' or 'thanks for the newsletters' etc. I did see one newsletter from 6/21/13 with lots of 'member had charges dismissed/no billed/etc' but nothing specific. The rest seemed more informative than anything. Again, I'd like to see Joe Public post something, separate from the website preferably, with a 'I used my gun(shot fired or not), was arrested, charged, dismissed' and was represented by TLS/CCW/etc and didn't have to pay a dime'. I _do_ get that Joe Public may not want his/her name out there but actual images of court documents with names blacked out, except for the attorney who is a part of TLS/CCW/etc would go along way.

    I've seen you state 'I personally know of individuals helped by TLS'; which admittedly makes me feel somewhat better about them but I'd still like to see proof myself before putting cash on the barrel head.

    We all have experience of State Farm/All State/etc paying out. TLS and the like have a much smaller population to pull 'evidence' from but I've still yet to see what I'd call proof and that makes me leery. All I've seen is anecdotal proof at best, IMO. No, $130 wont break the family budget but it's not small change either.

    I am covered, and no offennse I don't care if you sign up or not. There ARE plenty of stories. So let me just ask you; what do you plan to do now? Tonight at zero dark thirty someone breaks down your door and you pop him. After 911 what?

    I know. I have a plan. My attorneys are paid for.
     
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