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CCW Safe Vs Texas Law Shield?

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  • Shotgun Jeremy

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    Hicksville gun range-you may have heard that there was a militia guy teaching CHL classes without submitting the proper paperwork and severely undercutting his hours as well as talking about non-chl related things during these short hours. One of his students who initially raised alarm contacted TLS after his arrest. They immediately started giving her legal council and started working with the state to make sure her license wasn't revoked and she stayed out of any trouble. I personally talked with her about this because we shared a CHL class (her follow up as advised by TLS).

    A guy who's part of Texas Open Carry had a bogus arrest down by the border. He went in a police station to let them know he was going to be doing an open carry walk, and there's no need for alarm. I don't remember all the details but one thing led to another, they confiscated the guns from his vehicle, towed the vehicle, and arrested him. He called TLS, was released the next morning with all charges dropped, and his guns returned.
    Guns International
     

    Robb in Austin

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    Jul 26, 2012
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    I am covered, and no offennse I don't care if you sign up or not. There ARE plenty of stories. So let me just ask you; what do you plan to do now? Tonight at zero dark thirty someone breaks down your door and you pop him. After 911 what?

    I know. I have a plan. My attorneys are paid for.

    Personally, I'm on the fence about these services. I _want_ to believe they are real and do what they claim.

    Again, some of the stories I've heard have been 3rd or 4th person which is not enough to make me jump off the fence.

    Ones like Shotgun Jeremy just posted help get me leaning more towards their sides. I respect your status and opinion and when I read your 'I know of people' it helped but I'm still not 100% sold. Care to share some of your insight?
     

    Doctor SigFan

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    Sep 29, 2013
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    There are several services out there. The United States Concealed Carry Association (USCCA) offers a program as well as CCW Safe. If you are involved in a use of force incident, both organizations recommend reading a statement to police (stating you feared for your life and you will make no other statements until talking with an attorney). Then contact one of a series of attorneys in the area that specialize in these situations.

    I would highly recommend reviewing these services. Often protection against civil liability suits is required in the aftermath of a use of force incident. Further, whenever law enforcement officers are involved in such an incident, police benevolent agencies provide immediate legal assistance to these officers. To me, that indicates that legal representation is needed for all individuals involved in these situations.

    I think of it as an extra layer of protection. My CCL instructor, with 20 years experience as a sheriff/swat team leader, recommends not talking to police/law enforcement without first consulting with an attorney. The fees for these services annually are less than you would spend for 4 boxes of hollow point ammunition. Certainly, they are no replacement for training and practice. They do not replace the effort and expense of tactical classes by experienced instructors. However, if you consider your likely frame of mind after a life-changing event, wouldn't it be nice to know an experienced attorney is a phone call away that will be on your side? The LEOs have their legal representation, after all...
     

    Doctor SigFan

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    Personally, I'm on the fence about these services. I _want_ to believe they are real and do what they claim.

    Again, some of the stories I've heard have been 3rd or 4th person which is not enough to make me jump off the fence.

    Ones like Shotgun Jeremy just posted help get me leaning more towards their sides. I respect your status and opinion and when I read your 'I know of people' it helped but I'm still not 100% sold. Care to share some of your insight?

    Consider this: We are unquestionably in a bad economy, and property crimes may increase. What if you shoot a small time crook who tries to mug you in a dark parking lot who turns out to be a young male from a poor part of town "stealing money just to feed his family"? What if he had a HiPoint pistol that malfunctioned and you dropped him with a Glock or a Sig with a "high capacity magazine." Think how the anti-gun/ill-informed media would portray that situation. Think also how an aggressive district attorney with political ambitions would react. Think how various "civil rights leaders" would react if he looked different from you. Think about how words like "execution" and "murder" would appear in articles associated with your name. Do you own a business or have a security clearance with your job? Do you work under a certification board which demands "lawful and ethical behavior"? Do you have $10,000 readily available to assemble a defense team? Do you have experience dealing with the media?

    I'm not marketing any of these services and I hope to God I never find out if they deliver on what they promise. However, we've all watched how media and local politicians react to gun issues for the past 20 years or so, and we know how they would NEVER waste an opportunity to grandstand and misrepresent a gun owner (either in court or in the press). I know Texas (my adoptive home) and North Carolina (my home state) are comparatively forgiving places regarding the rights of gun owners. However, there are parts of these great states (Austin, Chapel Hill, etc) that are deep blue in how they vote. Consequently, police and DAs in these areas cannot be considered to be on our side regarding the rights of gun owners/CCL permit holders in use of force "incidents".

    That's why I'm game for ANY experienced lawyer that will be on my side if, God forbid, I'm ever in one of these situations. Just my $0.02.
     

    inceptor

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    Feb 23, 2013
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    Consider this: We are unquestionably in a bad economy, and property crimes may increase. What if you shoot a small time crook who tries to mug you in a dark parking lot who turns out to be a young male from a poor part of town "stealing money just to feed his family"? What if he had a HiPoint pistol that malfunctioned and you dropped him with a Glock or a Sig with a "high capacity magazine." Think how the anti-gun/ill-informed media would portray that situation. Think also how an aggressive district attorney with political ambitions would react. Think how various "civil rights leaders" would react if he looked different from you. Think about how words like "execution" and "murder" would appear in articles associated with your name. Do you own a business or have a security clearance with your job? Do you work under a certification board which demands "lawful and ethical behavior"? Do you have $10,000 readily available to assemble a defense team? Do you have experience dealing with the media?

    I'm not marketing any of these services and I hope to God I never find out if they deliver on what they promise. However, we've all watched how media and local politicians react to gun issues for the past 20 years or so, and we know how they would NEVER waste an opportunity to grandstand and misrepresent a gun owner (either in court or in the press). I know Texas (my adoptive home) and North Carolina (my home state) are comparatively forgiving places regarding the rights of gun owners. However, there are parts of these great states (Austin, Chapel Hill, etc) that are deep blue in how they vote. Consequently, police and DAs in these areas cannot be considered to be on our side regarding the rights of gun owners/CCL permit holders in use of force "incidents".

    That's why I'm game for ANY experienced lawyer that will be on my side if, God forbid, I'm ever in one of these situations. Just my $0.02.

    ^^This
     

    Robb in Austin

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    I agree with all you are stating. But again, I'd like to see some tangible proof of their services. Preferably, 1st hand. The last thing I'd like to run into is a situation similar to that which you describe only to find out the 'fine print' doesn't cover what they claim to cover on the surface.

    Call it cautious skepticism.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I agree with all you are stating. But again, I'd like to see some tangible proof of their services. Preferably, 1st hand. The last thing I'd like to run into is a situation similar to that which you describe only to find out the 'fine print' doesn't cover what they claim to cover on the surface.

    Call it cautious skepticism.

    What is your plan if tonight at zero dark thirty or have to shoot some azzhole breaking into your house? Who is your attorney and what will it cost you? I know who mine is and I have already paid. I have met mine, been to a training class for instructors. They are real deal at Texas Law Shield?
     

    Younggun

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    Jul 31, 2011
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    If you are writing to me, yes, and I just did. I have personally dealt with them, met them and spent a day training with them.

    I'll ask once again, what is YOUR plan for right now?

    I believe he is looking for someone with experience using TLS in an actual self defense case.


    Wouldn't it be easier to just find one of the other "is TLS worth it" threads and copy and past all the posts. Pretty much goes the same way every time this subject comes up.



    Or maybe we can get somebody to sign up for TLS and stand on a street corner in the bad side of whichever major city is closest to them wearing 2 rolexes, gold rings, and 100 dollar bills shoved in their ears and nose until somebody tries to rob them. Afterwords they can give us updates on the services TLS provides.
     

    stdreb27

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    I read the terms and conditions of tls. And here is the nuts and bolts
    1. No coverage in a dispute if you're legally carrying
    2. No coverage on appeal. (So you lose, the next level is out of your pocket)
    3. No coverage for anything but lawyer fees.
    4. They will pay for a lawyer to represent you in a case where you have charges stemming from discharging your firearm.
    5. They can drop you at any time.
     

    benenglish

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    Nov 22, 2011
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    I read the terms and conditions of tls. And here is the nuts and bolts
    1. No coverage in a dispute if you're legally carrying
    2. No coverage on appeal. (So you lose, the next level is out of your pocket)
    3. No coverage for anything but lawyer fees.
    4. They will pay for a lawyer to represent you in a case where you have charges stemming from discharging your firearm.
    5. They can drop you at any time.
    If all that is correct, that coverage is not something that would interest me.

    I've done a bit of research since this topic started and, frankly, I haven't found a product I really like. Defender's Choice, for example, doesn't kick in until you've actually been charged with a crime. One of the best things about having a lawyer is having someone to call immediately after an incident who will help the authorities decide that charging you is a bad idea.

    The more I investigate this topic, the less I like it.
     
    Last edited:

    karlac

    Lately too damn busy to have Gone fishin' ...
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    For those who really feel the need, and based on other options, like TLS, where a gun must apparently be actually used before any coverage is triggered, perhaps a combination of Homeowner's liability, TLS, and an organization like Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc. , to cover any gaps, might be a solution to some.

    I got the following in response to my query about what ACLDN's definition of "self defense" was in their coverage, which has apparently changed since their inception:

    "Because the Network is structured as a membership organization with specific membership benefits for members who have to defend themselves, granting those benefits can span a large range of situations, unlike insurance, which has to be more restrictive, and which we decidedly are not insurance. (We don't even use terms like coverage, limits, etc.) Self defense is any action lawfully undertaken with justification for using force in self defense. It can range from pushing someone forcefully away, using pepper spray, a knife, or a firearm, as just a few examples.


    Here's how it works. We know that all too often fully justifiable use of force in self defense results in criminal charges or civil law suit against the intended victim who had to use the force. Too often, early after surviving the attack, the intended victim makes statements that aren't accurate or do not represent what actually happened. If an attorney is present, that could be prevented.

    Thus, as you know from our educational DVD series, we want members to have a lawyer present during questioning after acting in self defense. The first stage of Network benefits is the payment of up to $10,000 deposit against attorney fees, so that the member has legal representation, even if they feel that they cannot afford the legal costs and believe that, as the apparent "good guys," they can answer police investigators just fine on their own. What they don't count on is the often adversarial system in which questioning can be conducted with a foregone conclusion in mind (that they were wrong to use force), and they are rarely ready for the intensity of the interrogation. A lawyer can control that to a large degree.

    If the State presses criminal charges, or a civil lawsuit is filed, the member and his or her attorney bring all of the facts of the case before the Network's Advisory board Industry Luminaries Support Network by Serving on the Advisory Board who review it in order to assure Network members that their Legal Defense Fund is not being used to pay for defense of a criminal act. That determined, they grant additional funding as needed to put on a vigorous defense of the member, and can also recommend, fund, and if the member's attorney agrees, even provide expert witness testimony to explain why the armed citizen had to take self defense actions to survive. Additionally, the Advisory Board can recommend the adding to the defense team attorneys they know who have successfully defended cases like the one at hand, who can assist the local attorney in defending the member."

    AAMOF, they told me that, based on my query, they updated the wording on their website to include the definition.

    Even though I like the concept, and personally decided to support them (along with other measures) nothing will be known for certain 'til the fat lady sings.
    YMMV ...
     

    Robb in Austin

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    I believe he is looking for someone with experience using TLS in an actual self defense case.


    Wouldn't it be easier to just find one of the other "is TLS worth it" threads and copy and past all the posts. Pretty much goes the same way every time this subject comes up.



    Or maybe we can get somebody to sign up for TLS and stand on a street corner in the bad side of whichever major city is closest to them wearing 2 rolexes, gold rings, and 100 dollar bills shoved in their ears and nose until somebody tries to rob them. Afterwords they can give us updates on the services TLS provides.

    @TXI; meeting them and training with them and being a subscriber are not the same as using their services.

    Yes, I was looking for someone who used their service, whether a shot is fired or not, and didn't have to shell out extra money and got their case handled. I'm not trying to be contrarian, just looking for proof.

    And yes, all these threads wind up the same.

    I'm not volunteering for that experiment! But, it's a good idea.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I read the terms and conditions of tls. And here is the nuts and bolts
    1. No coverage in a dispute if you're legally carrying
    2. No coverage on appeal. (So you lose, the next level is out of your pocket)
    3. No coverage for anything but lawyer fees.
    4. They will pay for a lawyer to represent you in a case where you have charges stemming from discharging your firearm.
    5. They can drop you at any time.

    #1, What?

    No, it does not cover appeals. Without it, you STILL pay out of pocket for the appeal, AND your other legel defense fees. Of course they can drop you. They havent yet, but be a stupid client and why would they keep you?
     

    txinvestigator

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    If all that is correct, that coverage is not something that would interest me.

    I've done a bit of research since this topic started and, frankly, I haven't found a product I really like. Defender's Choice, for example, doesn't kick in until you've actually been charged with a crime. One of the best things about having a lawyer is having someone to call immediately after an incident who will help the authorities decide that charging you is a bad idea.

    The more I investigate this topic, the less I like it.

    So you would rather try to find an attorney right after a shooting and come up with a retainer?
     

    inceptor

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    Feb 23, 2013
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    We are talking about prepaid legal here. They can keep the cost down because the majority will never need it. For what you pay here (for me it's TLS) for 10 yrs would not pay a retainer for an attorney. Prepaid legal is just CYA in case you MIGHT need it. Attorney's require a retainer if you want to be represented by them at some time. Are you willing to shell out a large retainer in case you need their services or do you really want to wait until something happens to find an attorney? These are your real choices. My wife and I talked it over and we decided this was the precautionary route. I hope I never need it but if I do, their card is in my wallet.

    Legal fee's are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
     
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