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Charles Whitman's Guns (UT Sniper)

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  • John Stanley

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    I am just curious John Stanley, do you have any connection to the shooter, victims, or any other part of the story? I am just wondering about your search for the guns and what happened to them.

    Dawico, No I do not other than what I researched the incident pretty heavily while a Criminal Justice Major at Stephen F. Austin State in the 1990s. I even had the chance to talk to Mr. Whitman (Charles' dad) in 1996 in Lake Worth, Florida. You see, the elder Whitman was the reason, at least according to Charles, Jr., that he did the whole deed in the first place. Apparently, the father was a domineering, abusive man. Charlie killed his wife and mother the night before ascending the Tower and left various notes. You can Wiki if you are interested. The mother had just moved to Austin from Lake Worth to escape the father. When I talked to Charles' dad in 1996 he was 77 years old and suffering the early stages of Alzheimer's disease but he invited myself and my female companion in at that time. His new wife fixed us tea. in his opinion Charlie was sick (there was tumor found during the autopsy). I've got a picture of myself and the elder Whitman if anyone is interested. He died in 2001. There are so many question I didn't ask that I wish I would have. For example, all of the notes left at various locations explaining various deeds have been released except for ONE- the note he wrote to his father. I asked Mr. Whitman if he still had the note and he said, "yes." In retrospect I should have asked him if I could read it.

    Armybrat, would love to read your account.

    Mikeinhistory, thanks for the link! I'll copy pieces of this into a coherent sequence and put a post there.

    35Remington, fascinating story. Most of the Scouts that have since been interviewed thought he was a bit of a show off and somewhat mean to the Scouts. Thanks for sharing.

    Stay safe all and thanks for making me feel welcome on this board.
    Guns International
     
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    breakingcontact

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    Dawico, No I do not other than what I researched the incident pretty heavily while a Criminal Justice Major at Stephen F. Austin State in the 1990s. I even had the chance to talk to Mr. Whitman (Charles' dad) in 1996 in Lake Worth, Florida. You see, the elder Whitman was the reason, at least according to Charles, Jr., that he did the whole deed in the first place. Apparently, the father was a domineering, abusive man. Charlie killed his wife and mother the night before ascending the Tower and left various notes. You can Wiki if you are interested. The mother had just moved to Austin from Lake Worth to escape the father. When I talked to Charles' dad in 1996 he was 77 years old and suffering the early stages of Alzheimer's disease but he invited myself and my female companion in at that time. His new wife fixed us tea. in his opinion Charlie was sick (there was tumor found during the autopsy). I've got a picture of myself and the elder Whitman if anyone is interested. He died in 2001. There are so many question I didn't ask that I wish I would have. For example, all of the notes left at various locations explaining various deeds have been released except for ONE- the note he wrote to his father. I asked Mr. Whitman if he still had the note and he said, "yes." In retrospect I should have asked him if I could read it.

    Armybrat, would love to read your account.

    Mikeinhistory, thanks for the link! I'll copy pieces of this into a coherent sequence and put a post there.

    35Remington, fascinating story. Most of the Scouts that have since been interviewed thought he was a bit of a show off and somewhat mean to the Scouts. Thanks for sharing.

    Stay safe all and thanks for making me feel welcome on this board.

    I think most of our anti depressant pill popping culture is total BS. However like traumatic brain injuries there is no doubt that physical anomalies or damage to the brain can wildly change a persons cognitive function, reasoning abilites, logic and even capacity for emotions like empathy.

    Einstein's portion of his brain that handled math was physically larger which left less room for the part of the brain that handled things like interpersonal relationships.

    Chemicals both released by the brain or prescribed by "doctors" can also have similar affects.

    From my limited study on the matter...no brain tumor...no shooting. Not saying his dad didnt have a negative effect on him, maybe he would have been an alcoholic wife beater or even killed a man...but to kill his own mother and wife and a bunch of random innocent people, that wouldn't have happened without essentially a "malfunctioning" brain. Tragic all around.

    So where are them guns?
     

    John Stanley

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    The mystery deepens. I found the following article from the the The Courier-Gazette (McKinney, Texas) · Tue, Nov 14, 1972 · Page 1. Apparently a gun dealer did buy the Whitman Guns in 1972 in Wichita Falls. So, the information is correct. I am assuming the guy in Wichita Falls died around 1989 and the guns where sold in his estate sale. Interestingly, these were the last items of Whitman's estate to be sold.

    Click on the image to read the stories.


    whit.jpg

    And the is from the
    Clovis News-Journal
    (Clovis, New Mexico)
    15 November 1972Page 13

    whimansold.jpg

    The Des Moines Register
    (Des Moines, Iowa)
    14 November 1972Page 8

    832_1336_390_694.jpg
     
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    Armybrat

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    I was there watching it from the NE corner of 21st & Whitis (the Dobie Mall building and the Ransom Center hadn't been built yet), which was a small parking lot at the time. The roomie & I walked out there after eating lunch in the Holiday House which fronted on the Drag. While eating, we had seen the ambulances howling up the street & wondered what was going on.

    We heard a few "booms", then somebody yelled at us to get down...that "they" were shooting people from the Tower. Crouching behind a car, we could clearly see Whitman leaning over the parapet taking aim & firing downwards. Most of the time it was a loud "boom", but once in a while we heard a rapid "pop pop pop" - when he used his smaller M1 carbine.
    After a short while we could hear lots of return gunfire coming from nearby buildings & apartments. Hundreds of rounds were going off, so it sounded like a big firefight - similar to the 'Nam newsclips on tv. That's when he ducked down behind the wall and started shooting through the drain spouts. We could see the ricochets knocking sprays of stone off the parapet wall.
    A small Cessna plane with Sheriff Boutwell on board with his deer rifle. It made a pass around the Tower, but veered off sharply - that's when Whitman fired at the plane (supposedly hitting it once).

    This went on for a while longer, while some of us speculated that the shooter (s) would jump off the Tower to end it. Then all of a sudden we saw a white flag being waved above the wall. Like a bunch of idiots, hundreds of people, including us, rushed up to the Mall. By the time we got there, the dead & wounded had been removed by brave individuals under fire. There were numerous pools of blood all over the area, and the crowd meticulously avoided stepping in them. Next to the ground floor exit in the west side of the Tower the crowd was pretty thick. Some random sights there: A Daily Texan reporter with his notepad, press card...wearing a steel army helmet...a Texas Ranger holding upright a Thompson submachine gun...a student sitting up on the wall who shouted "Let's hang him when they bring him out" (didn't know he was dead at the time). Unknown to us, the bodies from the Tower were removed from the east entrance,

    After an hour or so, there wasn't much to gawk at, and the stunned crowd thinned out, so we went back to our apartment and turned on our tv to watch the news reports. That's when we heard the well-known local news anchor, Paul Bolton, choke up when his grandson's name was read from the list of the dead. Remembering that personal tragedy still brings tears to my eyes. That evening we went down to a packed Scholz's and got drunk.

    Afterwards there were no public memorial services, nobody rushed in counselors, no calls for gun bans....no nuthin'.
     

    JohnnyLoco

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    I don't know if I buy the whole tumor thing. Maybe, who knows?

    He was removed from the marine scholarship program and court-martialed for other offences.

    To me that seems to follow a pattern of other homicidal narcissists, where their perceived superiority is injured by some personal failure, which leads to irrational violence.

    I would like to read his diary to confirm this. I hope he was just sick. But I don't know why anyone would want to preserve the memory of that day by collecting the guns he used.
     

    mitchntx

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    I was there watching it from the NE corner of 21st & Whitis (the Dobie Mall building and the Ransom Center hadn't been built yet), which was a small parking lot at the time. The roomie & I walked out there after eating lunch in the Holiday House which fronted on the Drag. While eating, we had seen the ambulances howling up the street & wondered what was going on.

    We heard a few "booms", then somebody yelled at us to get down...that "they" were shooting people from the Tower. Crouching behind a car, we could clearly see Whitman leaning over the parapet taking aim & firing downwards. Most of the time it was a loud "boom", but once in a while we heard a rapid "pop pop pop" - when he used his smaller M1 carbine.
    After a short while we could hear lots of return gunfire coming from nearby buildings & apartments. Hundreds of rounds were going off, so it sounded like a big firefight - similar to the 'Nam newsclips on tv. That's when he ducked down behind the wall and started shooting through the drain spouts. We could see the ricochets knocking sprays of stone off the parapet wall.
    A small Cessna plane with Sheriff Boutwell on board with his deer rifle. It made a pass around the Tower, but veered off sharply - that's when Whitman fired at the plane (supposedly hitting it once).

    This went on for a while longer, while some of us speculated that the shooter (s) would jump off the Tower to end it. Then all of a sudden we saw a white flag being waved above the wall. Like a bunch of idiots, hundreds of people, including us, rushed up to the Mall. By the time we got there, the dead & wounded had been removed by brave individuals under fire. There were numerous pools of blood all over the area, and the crowd meticulously avoided stepping in them. Next to the ground floor exit in the west side of the Tower the crowd was pretty thick. Some random sights there: A Daily Texan reporter with his notepad, press card...wearing a steel army helmet...a Texas Ranger holding upright a Thompson submachine gun...a student sitting up on the wall who shouted "Let's hang him when they bring him out" (didn't know he was dead at the time). Unknown to us, the bodies from the Tower were removed from the east entrance,

    After an hour or so, there wasn't much to gawk at, and the stunned crowd thinned out, so we went back to our apartment and turned on our tv to watch the news reports. That's when we heard the well-known local news anchor, Paul Bolton, choke up when his grandson's name was read from the list of the dead. Remembering that personal tragedy still brings tears to my eyes. That evening we went down to a packed Scholz's and got drunk.

    Afterwards there were no public memorial services, nobody rushed in counselors, no calls for gun bans....no nuthin'.

    Thanks for posting.

    Unfiltered reality is always the best "reality".
     

    jrbfishn

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    I don't know if I buy the whole tumor thing. Maybe, who knows?

    He was removed from the marine scholarship program and court-martialed for other offences.

    To me that seems to follow a pattern of other homicidal narcissists, where their perceived superiority is injured by some personal failure, which leads to irrational violence.

    I would like to read his diary to confirm this. I hope he was just sick. But I don't know why anyone would want to preserve the memory of that day by collecting the guns he used.

    How about Billy the Kid, Bonnie and Clyde, or a dozen others?
    Every once in a while you say something inteligent, and then **** it up.


    Sent by a idjit coffeeholic
     

    rsayloriii

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    I don't know if I buy the whole tumor thing. Maybe, who knows?

    He was removed from the marine scholarship program and court-martialed for other offences.

    To me that seems to follow a pattern of other homicidal narcissists, where their perceived superiority is injured by some personal failure, which leads to irrational violence.

    I would like to read his diary to confirm this. I hope he was just sick. But I don't know why anyone would want to preserve the memory of that day by collecting the guns he used.

    When you forget history, the truthful history, unwhitewashed history, then you're doomed to repeat it. Take it as a learning experience. Learn what can be done to help prevent it.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
     

    John Stanley

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    Armybrat, Thanks for taking the time to share that fascinating story. There is a documentary on Youtube called "Sniper '66." For those of you familiar with Austin one of Whitman's longest kills was an electrician named Roy Dell Schmidt. Schmidt and his co-worker were hiding behind one of the trees down Univerisity Avenue south of the Tower down the road with the grassy areas in between. Schmidt briefly stuck himself out to look north at the Tower and Whitman fired a shot that went over the Mall, past Littlefield Fountain and hit and killed Schmidt at a distance of over 500 yards at a moving target.

    I also agree with rsaylorii. The guns of Bonnie and Clyde are on display in Waco and no one complains as is the Derringer that killed Lincoln at Ford's Theatre and not a word as said about it. These guns have historical significance. Did any of you read the articles I found about Bobby Burns of Wichita Falls, TX that bought the guns in 1972? That story has an interesting side note as well. In 1974, two years after purchasing the guns, Burns was shot and killed by his wife in a murder suicide. His wife Abigail shot him then turned the gun on herself in an apparent fit of rage over Burns' infidelity.

    Now, again, where are those guns!?!?!
     

    Davetex

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    John, thanks for starting this thread. It has been very educational. I remember the day it happened, although I was just a kid in San Antonio. My Grandmother lived on Duval just north of the university, so it hit pretty close to home with her being so close to it.
     

    JohnnyLoco

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    How about Billy the Kid, Bonnie and Clyde, or a dozen others?
    Every once in a while you say something inteligent, and then $#@! it up.


    Sent by a idjit coffeeholic

    Sorry, but I'm not trying to impress you pal. I could give a rat's ass what you think.

    I for one find it morbid. How about trying to find the rope Ted Bundy used to strangle those poor women with? Or the pan Jeffrey Dahmer used to prepare his lunch?
     

    John Stanley

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    Sorry, but I'm not trying to impress you pal. I could give a rat's ass what you think.

    I for one find it morbid. How about trying to find the rope Ted Bundy used to strangle those poor women with? Or the pan Jeffrey Dahmer used to prepare his lunch?


    Gentleman, Please, let's try to stay on topic here. JohnnyLoco, I respect your opinion but we'll just have to agree to disagree. It doesn't mean we have to hate one another or argue.

    I just got off the phone with Wayne Buxton and he said the gun records were kept at Silver Dollar Pawn and Gun in Richardson/Rowlett area of Dallas. He said the store burned due to an electrical fire in 2006 and was rebuilt 5 year later. The records, according to Buxton, were boxed and shipped to the ATF in Virginia. Any of you guys know anything about how all this works? Apparently most of the guns (sold in lots) were Class 3 with the Whitman guns being the only ones that were not.

    The location of Silver Dollar Gun and Pawn was/is:

    2608 West Walnut
    Garland, TX 75042
     
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    JohnnyLoco

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    Whitman killed an unborn child and a child with those guns . I disagree with folks trying to put him in the same sentence as the famous outlaws. He was a cold-blooded psychopath.

    John, I know you wanted this to be an on-topic thread, but I don't appreciate "Murderabilia" and think it is sick and macabre.
     

    John Stanley

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    Whitman killed an unborn child and a child with those guns . I disagree with folks trying to put him in the same sentence as the famous outlaws. He was a cold-blooded psychopath.

    John, I know you wanted this to be an on-topic thread, but I don't appreciate "Murderabilia" and think it is sick and macabre.


    Again, I respect you opinion. However, these guns are part of Texas History and however macabre the crime may be, they do have a story to tell. Whitman's crimes are, unfortunately, part of the story of our state and should be, in my opinion, preserved. I appreciate and understand your point but we can't all agree.
     

    jrbfishn

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    Nobody has even insinuated he was anything but a killer, for whatever reason. he is not unlike some famous outlaw killers, he just lived in a different time. Who knows, some of them could have had tumors too. They all did what they did, for whatever reason. Only ones that know for sure, don't seem to be talking much.


    from a non-recovering coffeeholic
     

    majormadmax

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    I don't know if I buy the whole tumor thing. Maybe, who knows?

    He was removed from the marine scholarship program and court-martialed for other offences.

    To me that seems to follow a pattern of other homicidal narcissists, where their perceived superiority is injured by some personal failure, which leads to irrational violence.

    I would like to read his diary to confirm this. I hope he was just sick. But I don't know why anyone would want to preserve the memory of that day by collecting the guns he used.

    Per Wikipedia (and sourced), the Connally Commission--composed of neurosurgeons, psychiatrists, pathologists, psychologists and the University of Texas Health Center Directors, Dr. John White and Dr. Maurice Heatly--found that the glioblastoma tumor "conceivably could have contributed to his inability to control his emotions and actions." Forensic investigators have theorized that the tumor may have been pressed against the nearby amygdalae regions of his brain, known to affect fight/flight responses. Some neurologists have since speculated that his medical condition was in some way responsible for the attacks, in addition to his personal and social frames of reference.

    Additionally, investigating officers found that Whitman had visited several University doctors in the year prior to the shootings, who had prescribed him various medications. Whitman had seen a minimum of five doctors between the fall and winter of 1965, before he had visited a psychiatrist (he received no prescription from the latter). He was prescribed Valium by Dr. Jan Cochrum, who recommended he visit the campus psychiatrist. Whitman met with Maurice Dean Heatly, the staff psychiatrist at the University of Texas Health Center, on March 29, 1966. Whitman referred to his visit with Heatly in his final suicide note. He said, "I talked with a Doctor once for about two hours and tried to convey to him my fears that I felt come [sic] overwhelming violent impulses. After one visit, I never saw the Doctor again, and since then have been fighting my mental turmoil alone, and seemingly to no avail."

    As for the firearms he used, it's no different that someone collecting those used in war. It is history and like it or not, the past defines our future.
     

    JohnnyLoco

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    Per Wikipedia (and sourced), the Connally Commission--composed of neurosurgeons, psychiatrists, pathologists, psychologists and the University of Texas Health Center Directors, Dr. John White and Dr. Maurice Heatly--found that the glioblastoma tumor "conceivably could have contributed to his inability to control his emotions and actions." Forensic investigators have theorized that the tumor may have been pressed against the nearby amygdalae regions of his brain, known to affect fight/flight responses. Some neurologists have since speculated that his medical condition was in some way responsible for the attacks, in addition to his personal and social frames of reference.

    Additionally, investigating officers found that Whitman had visited several University doctors in the year prior to the shootings, who had prescribed him various medications. Whitman had seen a minimum of five doctors between the fall and winter of 1965, before he had visited a psychiatrist (he received no prescription from the latter). He was prescribed Valium by Dr. Jan Cochrum, who recommended he visit the campus psychiatrist. Whitman met with Maurice Dean Heatly, the staff psychiatrist at the University of Texas Health Center, on March 29, 1966. Whitman referred to his visit with Heatly in his final suicide note. He said, "I talked with a Doctor once for about two hours and tried to convey to him my fears that I felt come [sic] overwhelming violent impulses. After one visit, I never saw the Doctor again, and since then have been fighting my mental turmoil alone, and seemingly to no avail."

    As for the firearms he used, it's no different that someone collecting those used in war. It is history and like it or not, the past defines our future.

    This case has been examined since the Connally Commission. FBI profiler John Douglas had this to say:

    "We may never solve this issue to everyone's satisfaction, but my own opinion, based largely on the work of experts in a field in which I have no expertise, is that the tumor is merely an incidental finding and that the real answers go back to the personality type we've been describing."

    He goes on to quote Dr. Richard Restak, clinical professor of neurology at George Washington University Medical Center:

    "Based on the size, location, and characteristics of this slow-growing tumor, Restak discounts its significance in Whitmans behavior.
    "Lesions in the frontal lobe have been associated with psychopathological responses," he explains, "but this tumor near the mid-brain could not be considered a frontally mediated psychopathy. Nor is it the kind that would affect the control of impulses or planning. In this case, there would be more than a couple of synapses between the stimulus and response, and the more of these we have, the more possibility we have a self-reflection before considering any action."

    Douglas concludes:

    "And in this regard the fact of the case speak for themselves. Whitman planned his final days meticulously; there was nothing spontaneous or impulsive about the entire operation. He had scouted the location more than a week beforehand, he heavily armed himself, provided enough food, water, and supplies to hold out for days or weeks if it came to that. He methodically bought himself the time he wanted before discovery by placing the note on his mother's apartment door and calling Katy's boss at work."

    The Anatomy Of Motive - John Douglas - Google Books

    John Douglas, Anatomy of Motive, pg 4-8
     
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