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  • Coondog

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    I live in texas. I currently am waiting on my CHL to come back. My question is this. If go throught the rigorous cycle to get a silencer and i have my CHL liscense and all the paperwork for everything can i carry my handgun with the silencer intact? Say this is the only weapon i am carrying and i get pulled over for trailer lights not working. The officer comes to my door and asks for registration insurance liscense, etc. I give him all of it plus my chl and tax stamp liscense thingy for the silencer. he asks to see the weapon and i pull it out. it has the silencer intact, locked and cocked. what happens from here? am i in troiuble, or does he not care, or does he say nice setup or what? i want to buy the silencer, but niot if its illegal to carry. i want to be able to transport it and use it on predators and snakes and wha tnot, on private property of my own of course.
    Texas SOT
     

    JKTex

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    It's a legal question.

    If you're legal buying and owning it, it's not illegal right? Or is it? If you've gone through the "rigorous cycle" to get it, by then you ought to know if it's legal to carry.

    Personally, I can't see one on a carry weapon and trying to conceal it. But I may not understand size and feasibility to carry either. I can't imagine a concealable holster that will accommodate it either.

    It almost sounds like the dual purpose you need, isn't really something you can do easily with 1 gun. It's like needing a family car that'll seat 8 and have cargo room and entertainment for the kids (minivan) that will run 3.9 sec 317 MPH top fuel. You might be able to do it, but it won't be real feasible.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Possession of a silencer under the NFA is a defense to prosecution in Texas. A defense to prosecution is for use at trial. It means a Peace Officer could arrest you for possession of the silencer. You would likely have the case dismissed before trial, but worst case is a not guilty verdict of you present your defense.

    A defense to prosecution is NOT a defense from prosecution.

    Texas Penal Code
    § 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

    (4) "Firearm silencer" means any device designed,
    made, or adapted to muffle the report of a firearm


    § 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an
    offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses
    , manufactures,
    transports, repairs, or sells:
    (1) an explosive weapon;
    (2) a machine gun;
    (3) a short-barrel firearm;
    (4) a firearm silencer;
    (5) a switchblade knife;
    (6) knuckles;
    (7) armor-piercing ammunition;
    (8) a chemical dispensing device; or
    (9) a zip gun.


    (c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
    the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the
    National Firearms Act, as amended.


    § 2.03. DEFENSE. (a) A defense to prosecution for an
    offense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is a defense
    to prosecution . . . ."
    (b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the
    existence of a defense in the accusation charging commission of the
    offense.
    (c) The issue of the existence of a defense is not submitted
    to the jury unless evidence is admitted supporting the defense.
    (d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted
    to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the
    issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.
    (e) A ground of defense in a penal law that is not plainly
    labeled in accordance with this chapter has the procedural and
    evidentiary consequences of a defense.


    It would not be worth the potential hassle to me. YMMV
     

    kingofwylietx

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    Suppressors are not typically part of the firearms barrel (though there are models where they are integrated). If you wish to use it on your property, you may be better off attaching it when you intend to use it. Most have a 3-lug or threaded attachment point, they are not cumbersome. For concealed carry, I would not keep it attached. When leaving for, or arriving at a place I wanted to use it.....I would then attach it.

    Policemen are not lawyers or judges. If they feel you are in breach of the law, they may arrest you. The fact you have defense to prosecution is not necessarily going to keep you out of jail.
     

    Coondog

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    ok first of all to jk tex, i am not trying to keep this thing strapped to my hip at all times. i guess i could have said that i have it in the vehicle with me, the can attached to the pistol, concealed, say under the center console, out of sight. does this change your point of view?

    and to txinvestigator: i dont think i understand this penal code you have posted. it seems to contradict other ( what i thought were) laws. it is legal to own a silencer in the state of texas i thought. Or at least that is what i read on the ATF website thingy. i think what your are saying is that i can still be arrested for it regardless my taxed and approved ownership of a silencer. and that it would probably be dismissed before court. Am i reading correctly?

    And to king of wylietx and to all i guess: the most this would be transported would be off of private property onto a public roadway for possibly 20 miles, through a town of less than 1000 ppl, maybe ten more miles at most onto more private property about 2 to 3 times a day. i do no tplan to go to dallas or houston or something and run stoplights and jaywalk down mainstreet. i guess i could have explained myself a bit better huh. does this change the idea i have in mind a bit better? just looking for responsible answers. thanks for your input!!!
     

    Texas1911

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    and to txinvestigator: dont think i understand this penal code you have posted. it seems to contradict other ( what i thought were) laws. it is legal to own a silencer in the state of texas i thought. Or at least that is what i read on the ATF website thingy. i think what your are saying is that i can still be arrested for it regardless my taxed and approved ownership of a silencer. and that it would probably be dismissed before court. Am i reading correctly?

    The law states it is illegal to own unless you are confining to the NFA regulations. The tax stamp and legal pathway is what defines it as legal.

    I would not want to ever be caught with a suppressor on my person or in my vehicle in relation to a self-defense shooting. Imagine the image the jury would have, and how easily a prosecutor could paint you as some kind of wanna-be hitman.
     

    txinvestigator

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    The law states it is illegal to own unless you are confining to the NFA regulations. The tax stamp and legal pathway is what defines it as legal.

    .


    Pretty much. The law makes possession a crime. If your possession is in line with the NFA, then you have a defense to prosecution. That means you could still be arrested and charged with possession, and would have to prove your possession was pursuant to the NFA.

    If the law read, "it is an exception to the application of this section if the possession was pursuant to the NFA", then an arrest would not be possible of the paperwork was available for the officer.
     

    juwaba98

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    Basically yes, it is legal to own, possess, carry in your vehicle and anything else you may want to do with it within the confines of the law. But yes you could possibly be arrested if you are just going from place to place as part of a daily routine. If you are going from your home to place of use ONLY, accompanied by the proper paperwork then the officer would likely look more favorably upon the situation. However if you pull out of a convenience store and then get pulled over you will have a harder time. This is all assuming the officer knows the law. If he doesn't then all your paperwork is worthless until your court date.

    There is an old saying that goes, "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride."

    Think about that. You are subject to arrest at anytime for anything. That arrest may be unlawful and unjust, but it is the COURT that decides that. Not you, the officer or any paperwork you may have to prove you're right.

    Hell, When I was quite a bit younger I got pulled over in a small town here in our great state and recieved a citation with 3 offenses listed.

    1) Driving under the influence
    2) Minor in Possession
    3) Minor in Consumption

    The third one doesn't even exist (or at least didn't then). But I was cited for it and could do nothing about it until my day in court. Not exactly the same but the issuing officer swore up and down it was a real charge even before the judge who threw #'s 2 and 3 out in court.

    Just because you know the law and people on the internet say it's legal doesn't mean the officer who might pull you over will have a clue. A large part of our society think suppressors (silencers), fully automatics and SBR's are all illegal. Our citizens, neighbors and friends make up our law enforcement. They try their best to know the applicable laws but they are going to be the most knowledgeable about the area of the law they deal with the most. For your average patrolman this will be traffic laws. Some may not even know that the NFA laws exist.

    This is in no way an attempt to look down on law enforcement or to belittle them at all. LEO's that may read this please do not take offense to anything I've said as none was intended. I am one of the few left that truly have respect for you and what you do like most members of this board.

    To the OP.......... Short answer..... Yes you can, but I definitley wouldn't advise it as I would not want to think of the cost to try and get myself proven innocent. Make no mistake if you do get arrested you will have to pay serious money to fight it and if you win (as you should) you will still be out of that money. No one is going to reimburse you unless you also file a civil suit which means you would have to convince a jury of your peers (who probably will have horrible misconceptions) of the wrong that was done to you.

    Sorry for getting so long winded. Just my



    Edited to add: Seek advice from a lawyer before making a decision.
     

    kingofwylietx

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    ok first of all to jk tex, i am not trying to keep this thing strapped to my hip at all times. i guess i could have said that i have it in the vehicle with me, the can attached to the pistol, concealed, say under the center console, out of sight. does this change your point of view?

    and to txinvestigator: i dont think i understand this penal code you have posted. it seems to contradict other ( what i thought were) laws. it is legal to own a silencer in the state of texas i thought. Or at least that is what i read on the ATF website thingy. i think what your are saying is that i can still be arrested for it regardless my taxed and approved ownership of a silencer. and that it would probably be dismissed before court. Am i reading correctly?

    And to king of wylietx and to all i guess: the most this would be transported would be off of private property onto a public roadway for possibly 20 miles, through a town of less than 1000 ppl, maybe ten more miles at most onto more private property about 2 to 3 times a day. i do no tplan to go to dallas or houston or something and run stoplights and jaywalk down mainstreet. i guess i could have explained myself a bit better huh. does this change the idea i have in mind a bit better? just looking for responsible answers. thanks for your input!!!

    I have to say that when I read your original post, I thought you planned to walk around with a suppressed pistol as your normal concealed carry weapon. Everyone else probably thought the same.

    Suppressors are fun, because you can shoot without hearing protection or disturbing anyone. They also tame some of the recoil.

    It sounds like the general concensus is that, though they are legal, you should probably only transport it at the times you intend to use it. It may be convenient to keep it in your vehicle, but it may open you up to situations that are less than desireable if you happen to get pulled over. I don't know many, but the guys I do know that own suppressors....keep them stored in their safes until they intend to use them.
     

    Coondog

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    i appreciate all the advice. i got the general concensus and i better understand the ideas behind everybodies thoughts. i will probably just keep the item in the safe as you say until ready for use. after doing some talking with some persoanl friends yesterday i actually found a guy nearby that owns quite a few of them, from .22 rimfire on up to 30-06 i beleive it was, and it is definately in my future plans to own. thanks alot and hope to see more opinions if there are any out there.
     

    JKTex

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    ok first of all to jk tex, i am not trying to keep this thing strapped to my hip at all times. i guess i could have said that i have it in the vehicle with me, the can attached to the pistol, concealed, say under the center console, out of sight. does this change your point of view?

    Yes it does change my point of view. It also changes the context of your thread as it has nothing to do with a CHL.

    But still, I don't know and wouldn't recommend basing your decision to carry it in your car on opinions of people on a forum. But txinstigator is pointing you to pieces of the related laws which you also have full access to. If it were me, I'd at least be reading the entire thing myself until I was sure I understood.
     

    JKTex

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    i appreciate all the advice. i got the general concensus and i better understand the ideas behind everybodies thoughts. i will probably just keep the item in the safe as you say until ready for use. after doing some talking with some persoanl friends yesterday i actually found a guy nearby that owns quite a few of them, from .22 rimfire on up to 30-06 i beleive it was, and it is definately in my future plans to own. thanks alot and hope to see more opinions if there are any out there.

    Sounds like you have a line on a good reference.

    I know of a guy (someone a cousin knows up near Bryan/College Station) that got one several years ago for a rifle for the purpose of killing nuisance Coyote's without causing alarm with the gun fire. I'd have to assume he was carrying it in his truck on the gun as it was a dedicated gun for that purpose, and on behalf of others in the area.

    But again, I only know what what I hear and don't know the ins and outs of NFA stuff.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Think about that. You are subject to arrest at anytime for anything. That arrest may be unlawful and unjust, but it is the COURT that decides that. Not you, the officer or any paperwork you may have to prove you're right.


    To be clear AND fair, if an officer makes an arrest for something that is not illegal he is subject to prosecution under Federal and State law. On the issue of NFA items, since in Texas there is a defense to prosecution for the offense of posession of a silencer, then an arrest would not subject the officer to such charges.
     

    juwaba98

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    To be clear AND fair, if an officer makes an arrest for something that is not illegal he is subject to prosecution under Federal and State law. On the issue of NFA items, since in Texas there is a defense to prosecution for the offense of posession of a silencer, then an arrest would not subject the officer to such charges.

    Sorry for wording it poorly. Your knowledge obviously exceeds mine. I did not realize that there was a difference in the intent of the wording. So if I understand correctly, even though it IS legal, you WILL be arrested?

    hell, I'm confusing myself now and the 2 year old in my lap is preventing me from developing a cohesive train of thought/
     

    txinvestigator

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    Sorry for wording it poorly. Your knowledge obviously exceeds mine. I did not realize that there was a difference in the intent of the wording. So if I understand correctly, even though it IS legal, you WILL be arrested?

    No, I am not saying you WILL be arrested. But you COULD be. For a peace officer to make an arrest for a Felony he must either observe it or upon the representation of a credible person, that a felony has been committed, and that the offender is about to escape, so that there is no time to procure a warrant, such peace officer may, without warrant, pursue and arrest the accused.

    Since possession of a silencer is listed as an offense a person can be arrested for that offense. The Penal Code defines what makes an offense, and it is;

    (A) the forbidden conduct;
    (B) the required culpability;
    (C) any required result; and
    (D) the negation of any exception to the offense.


    So if an officer has the forbidden conduct (possession of a silencer) and the required culpability (intentionally or knowingly), and if there is no result required as is this case, AND there is no exception for him to negate (there is not) then he can make an arrest.

    A defense to prosecution is a separate term than an exception. If possession under the NFA was an exception to the offense then an arrest would not be possible.

    Personally I think the Legislature needs to change the defense to an exception.
     

    juwaba98

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    txinvestigator,

    Thanks for making that so clear. I was trying to get there yesterday evening but the circumstances (see last post) were clouding my thought process. I appreciate you articulating that so well. I agree the wording should be changed. I don't like the fact that it is arrestable regardless of the legality. Nonetheless I appreciate you helping me wrap my little mind around the laws.
     

    Coondog

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    Some more of the story in my case is that I live in a small town in one of the largest counties in this wonderful state. Now my mother is a judge, and the sherriff is one of my best friends. And my family owns one of the only businesses here. Everybody knows us, as in most little towns, and they now what color it is before you flush it, but that is a whole nother story. Anywho, the sherriff will sign it. The item will most likely stay in this county. If i am taken to jail, i probably wont make it through the door. Like i said, small palce. We personally know and are friends with every sherriff deputy in this county, and many of the dps. But since some dps get transfered here, they are strangers. i do my best to introduce myself, tell we are happy they are here and that we support them. Also, the state of texas is doing some fishy things with the dps, they are shipping 20 - 60 officers in here for 2 weeks every other 2 weeks. i dont know if they do this everywhere else or not, but here, man you know the first day they show up because it is flat and you can see for a ways, and the interstate looks like the third string down on your christmas tree every year. Man just flashing lights all over. So these are officers i dont know. If i were to get arrested for having this can with me, a felony i take it, would i taken to jail here or would i be taken to jail in like a federal prison or some shit?
    just another question, i mean its not like it lessens the blow. i have a very clean record, i mean squeaky clean, and i would rather stick my wiener in a meat grinder than screw that up. So feed it back to me. you guys seem to be knowledgeable. thanks
     

    txinvestigator

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    Also, the state of texas is doing some fishy things with the dps, they are shipping 20 - 60 officers in here for 2 weeks every other 2 weeks.
    How is that "fishy"? Do you imagine the state is trying to get away with something?

    If you are in a border county; DPS is sending in Troopers to assist with the illegal alien problem.

    If i were to get arrested for having this can with me, a felony i take it, would i taken to jail here or would i be taken to jail in like a federal prison or some shit?
    just another question, i mean its not like it lessens the blow.

    Depends on the arrangement. An arrest by the SO or DPS would get you to the county jail.

    You would only be sent to a prison (a facility run by the state where felons are housed) if convicted. I imagine that would not happen
     

    lunchbox

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    I heard a good story about this at work "a gun store in houston"

    an officer was at a range and a man who had a legal stamped silencer was also at the range. the LEO promptly arrested the man for the possession of the item in question. when the got to the station the supervisor asked if the man had a stamp. the officer looked puzzled and said what?

    the supervisor asked the arrested party about the stamp. the man said he tried to explain to the LEO about the stamp and what not but would not be swayed from his stand.
    the supervisor then promptly told the LEO to get the cuffs of the man and take him back and be apologetic for fear of a lawsuit for false arrest
     
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