CHL Traffic Stop stories. What Is yours?

[Double Naught Spy]

I tell this story to guys who say they really want to get their carry license but that the main intent is using it to beat traffic tickets...Fat chance.

Fat chance? I am currently ahead by 4. In the last 8 years, I have managed to NOT get 7 tickets after presenting my CHL, but still managed to get three. So those are 7 tickets of fines that I did not incur.

Getting out of tickets happens, but I would not count on it happening. In the 20 years of driving before getting my CHL, I rarely got out of tickets and if I did, it was with a formal written warning.

 

[malladus]

I've been stopped twice in Houston. Both times killed the truck, had the interior light on, and my DL and CHL in my hands on the wheel. As soon as I handed my IDs to the officer I informed him I was carrying. First stop was because my truck matched a suspicous vehicle report, so I got asked to get out of the truck. Surrendered my pistol and stood by the rear in his spotlight while he ran some stuff. Second time I got a warning for changing lanes in an intersection. He didn't disarm me, but did make sure I kept my hands in his vision the whole time. I think he did that because my son (2 at the time) was asleep in the back in his car seat.

Was stopped on other time and it was a little more complicated. Was in the process of relocating my firearms to Dallas about three months ago. Had them loaded up in my pickup truck along with all my associated crap and a bunch of other stuff I was storing for my father in law. As I'm driving from Houston to Dallas, the boss calls and wants me to stop and look as some monitoring wells in a small town southwest of Dallas. Slight detour so no biggie.

Well anyways I get to the site, start going around to the wells which are in the parking lot of a strip mall. In order to get into these things you need a screw driver and a ratchet. Apparently one of the tenants saw me walking between the cars to pop the well covers and thought I was doing a little casual auto B & E, which isn't that uncommon in that area.

So I drive around to the wells in the alley behind the strip center. As I'm getting done with one of the wells I look up and see a local PD cruiser coming up the alley towards me. I then notice the one coming down the opposite way in the alley behind me. They hit the lights and tell me to stand still and keep my hands out.

As they come up and ask the usual who, what, why and iD thing. I let them know who, what, why and before I reach for my wallet that I have a pistol on my hip and a knife in my pocket. One cop gets them out and puts them on the hood of my truck while the other moves me towards his car to talk. While he's checking my story, the other cop notices all the boxes, bags and cases stacked in the back seat and bed of my truck. So in light of the reason for my being stopped, they ask what is in them and if I mind if they have a look. Almost as a afterthought the second cop who is looking in the bed of the truck asks if I have any other weapons in the truck.

At that point they got real quiet as I told them I had 17 rifles, 8 shotguns, and 31 pistols spread between the back and bed of the truck. The one cop looked like he was about to shit a brick, the other cop was much more professional and asked why I had them. So I explained things. They called my boss and the property owner and confirmed I was supposed to be there and my boss confirmed that I was relocating. After that the second cop took off when everything came up kosher. The first cop stuck around and talked with me for about 30 minutes about shooting.

I'm sure for a second there the second cop thought he had made the mother of all seizures that town had ever seen. My boss gave me some crap because although the company HSE policies are written to allow me to carry while at work, didn't I think having 57 guns on me was a little excess.

Malladus

 

[sharky47]

I have not been pulled over since obtaining my CHL about a year ago - either as a driver or passenger.

Now, what I am curious about is contact with LEO while on foot. I know in Tx, without probable cause - you do not have to provide ID if asked while on foot, I am not sure - but would assume that while carrying, that this changes.....

Anyway - I would like to know if/how contact with LEO went while carrying and on foot.....

 

[Hoji]

For me it has run the gambit. Everything from "okay just leave it there" to them taking it and returning it after the contact, to being handcuffed "for my safety" A supervisor I know pretty well came up on the last and asked why I was in cuffs." He was carrying a handgun and I wanted to make sure it was valid before releasing him". Supervisor's answer" Un cuff him and if it comes back invalid, THEN arrest him" The cuffs came off.


The common thread is the smaller and younger the LEO is, the better chance of him/her being defensive and snappy, while older, larger more experienced officers tend to have a better attitude.

City police seem to be twitchier while DPS and County seem to have their act together and realize that a CHL holder is most likely the most law abiding citizen they will encounter for the shift.

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

I have not been pulled over since obtaining my CHL about a year ago - either as a driver or passenger.

Now, what I am curious about is contact with LEO while on foot. I know in Tx, without probable cause - you do not have to provide ID if asked while on foot, I am not sure - but would assume that while carrying, that this changes.....

Anyway - I would like to know if/how contact with LEO went while carrying and on foot.....

The statute makes no qualifications. It simply states that you must display both your CHL and Driver License or state issued ID card when a peace officer requests identification. There is no mention of a requirement for probable cause, etc.

 

[Renegade]

Pulled over by a Constable for speeding. He decides to approach on the right, even though it is steep drop off and I have a big truck so when he opens the door, he is looking at the seat.

He decides to take my gun "for his safety", which is in my console. So he reachs across passenger seat into console and blindly grabs for it, in the process shifting it out of the holster. As I see his thumb go into the trigger guard and he starts to grasp it with the barrel pointed at his head, though he cannot see this, I yell stop and explain problem. He then comes around to driver side, makes me get out, hops in and takes it.

I of course do not mention the loaded machine gun on the back seat, as I have no legal obligation to do so. He rewards me for preventing him from blowing his brains out by giving me a ticket anyway....

 

[JKTex]

I have not been pulled over since obtaining my CHL about a year ago - either as a driver or passenger.

Now, what I am curious about is contact with LEO while on foot. I know in Tx, without probable cause - you do not have to provide ID if asked while on foot, I am not sure - but would assume that while carrying, that this changes.....

Anyway - I would like to know if/how contact with LEO went while carrying and on foot.....

I agree with doubleaction. Driving, walking, sleeping, eating curry chicken....if a LEO asks you for ID you must provide it. With a CHL and if you're carrying, you must provide both. (good idea to provide both anyway 'cause if he runs your DL, he'll know about the CHL)

 

[Renegade]

I agree with doubleaction. Driving, walking, sleeping, eating curry chicken....if a LEO asks you for ID you must provide it.

There is no legal requirement to provide a physical ID unless you are participating in a licensed activity.

 

[malladus]

If the officer can prove reasonable suspicion that an activity may be taking place or have been that you are in the area of he can legally ask you for ID and you have to provide it according SCOTUS. Of course the biggie comes into play is what is reasonable suspicion which the Texas AG, TSC, and SCOTUS have loosely defined.

So if you are walking in an area where something has occurred or where its not usual to see folks walking. He possibly within his rights to ask you for ID.

There are numerous threads across the internet in most gun-forums where folks beat this dead horse with a stick constantly. The general consensus seems to end up in one of two camps:

(1) Unless they charge me or tell me I am a suspicous person and why, no way am I going to ID myself.

(2) I got nothing to hide so why does it matter.

The first argument always leads into the why would you be worried if you had done nothing wrong, and the second assumes that you won't get acidently roped into something or be the victim of unreasonable search and seizure.

I'm sure there are some LEO or ex-LEOs on here that can better define what they have considered reasonable suspicion. Best example I can offer is a really close friend who is a State Trooper in Alabama. He responded to a local PD request for extra units following a gang related shooting. Him and a fellow DPS officer helped establish the perimeter. While there an individual was spotted walking towards them. They were in a commericial business park at 2 am with no businesses open since 6pm. They requested ID and a reason for his being there. The man refused citing that he didn't have to prvide ID and also that he didn't have any on him. He matched a general description, but not a real specific one. So they detained him until they could verify his ID. In the process they dscovered a pistol on his person.

In the subsequent trial the suspect attempted to have the weapon and his arrest thrown out because he didn't have to provide ID and illegal search and seizure. The court and two levels of appeals denied the motion because they ruled the officers did have reasonable suspicion based on (1) location (2) behavior and (3) recently occuring criminal activity.

But I think someone here already summed up legal advice on the internet so take this with a grain of salt, a lime and two shots of tequila and respond in the morning.

Malladus

 

[txinvestigator]

If the officer can prove reasonable suspicion that an activity may be taking place or have been that you are in the area of he can legally ask you for ID and you have to provide it according SCOTUS.

So if you are walking in an area where something has occurred or where its not usual to see folks walking. He possibly within his rights to ask you for ID.

TEXAS law is more restrictive on peace officers. Unless you are engaged in a licensed activity like driving, hunting, carrying a CHL, etc., a person is not legally required to ID to a Peace Officer unless he is under arrest.

If you are under arrest, lawfully detained or a peace officer reasonably believes you are a witness to a crime, then it is illegal to lie about your ID. You can refuse unless you are under arrest.

Texas Penal Code

§ 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an
offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence
address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully
arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a
false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a
peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the
peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal
offense.

 

[malladus]

That is the legal statutes for being charged with failure to provide ID. However, it is still completely legal for an officer to request you to present ID if he can articulate why he is requesting it based on reasonable suspicion and probable cause, then you would need to present it. The circumstances of the request must be justifiable at a later date should they arise in court or subsequent legal action as a result of the request.

So whether you are performing a licensed act or not, if you provide some reason for the office to have reasonable suspicion that you are a person of interest he has the right to ask you for ID. Now once you decide to refuse to provide ID the officer then can decide he has enough reasonable suspicion to detain or arrest you and then the Penal Code kicks in as to getting charged for failure to provide identification. If he doesn't then he's just violated your civil rights and you get to rack up some bucks for your gun collection.

I think however alot of this is moot as DoubleActionCHL pointed out earlier that the statue applying to providing ID when requested by an LEO when you have a CHL is not qualified by the need to have any cause. Also as you pointed out in your own post, if you are a CHL holder and carrying you are performing a liscensed activity and therefor he is justified in asking for ID.

I still think in the longrun he would need some cause or reasonable suspicion if charges came about. But then again I'm into volcanos and environmental regulations, not civil rights.

Malldadus

 

[txinvestigator]

That is the legal statutes for being charged with failure to provide ID. However, it is still completely legal for an officer to request you to present ID if he can articulate why he is requesting it based on reasonable suspicion and probable cause, then you would need to present it.

Or what? He can ask, but you are under NO LEGAL obligation to present ID. Heck, you don't even have to CARRY ID, unless engaged in a licensed activity that requires it. .

So whether you are performing a licensed act or not, if you provide some reason for the office to have reasonable suspicion that you are a person of interest he has the right to ask you for ID. Now once you decide to refuse to provide ID the officer then can decide he has enough reasonable suspicion to detain or arrest you and then the Penal Code kicks in as to getting charged for failure to provide identification. If he doesn't then he's just violated your civil rights and you get to rack up some bucks for your gun collection.

ONLY IF YOU ARE ARRESTED ARE YOU REQUIRED TO ID, unless engaged in a licensed activity requiring it.

I showed the law. There is nothing that allows a peace officer to take action against a person who refuses to ID unless that person is under arrest. There is no provision for "person of interest" probable cause or reasonable suspicion.

I think however alot of this is moot as DoubleActionCHL pointed out earlier that the statue applying to providing ID when requested by an LEO when you have a CHL is not qualified by the need to have any cause. Also as you pointed out in your own post, if you are a CHL holder and carrying you are performing a liscensed activity and therefor he is justified in asking for ID.

Yep, I covered that.

 

[malladus]

Three seperate arguments.

(1) Can an LEO ask you for identification?
(2) Do you have to provide?
(3) Can you be arrested for not providing it?

Answer to the first is yes he can given reasonable cause. He does not need you to be performing a liscensed activity to initiate a contact and request ID, he simply needs reasonable cause or suspicion that he can support in a court of law for stopping you and asking for ID. Its typically considered good form for him to explain to you why he is making those request (looks good on the trial showing of the video).

At that point it becomes question two, a matter of your civil rights to provide ID. Should you choose not to, you are within in your rights to say no or not have it on you.

Which leads to three, the officer however is legally able to detain you should he have enough reasonable suspicion that you are the person in question or have just commited a crime. He is not detaining you for not providing ID, but for whatever reason he stopped you in the first place. You refusal or inability to provide ID is beside the point, but becomes a legal issue as you have pointed out once he detains or arrests you. I probably wasn't to clear about that and made it sound like he was arresting you for not having ID.

This is demonstrated almost daily by police officers stopping and arresting suspects. Lack of ID is not a viable defense for arrest or detention should they have reasonable suspicion or cause.

Once they slap the cuffs on you and start processing you then the penal code kicks in. Now whether the detention or arrest is legal and withstand challenge in court is a totally seperate argument.

The big key is probably cause, without it the officer is not justified in doing anything, heck he as much right as the next guy on the street to ask you for ID or to sleep with your wife. But if he's got probably cause it changes the game. Enough probable cause and he well within his rights to detain you until they can verify that you are or not the person they are looking for within the limits of the law before having to process you for arrest.

You keep referring to the penal code, what is really being discussed is a matter of civil rights as in as far as an officer has the right to acertain your identity given reasonable cause or suspicious behavior. The Texas penal code simple provides in basic terms the reasons for which you can be charged with a crime and the charges those cirmes carry. They do not act as a guidance for LEO's contacts with the public. The Texas Penal code does not set forth the actual rules under which an officer may request ID in a broader sense.

You may not be under any legal obligation to do so, but the officer can still detain you if he has reasonable cause or suspicion which is my point if you refuse to provide ID. Your refusal to provide ID if he has a legally strong enough reasonable cause or suspicion isn't enough to stop him from then detaining you. I think you keep missing the point in the argument that the officer is not arresting you or detaining you for not providing ID, he is arresting you or detaining you in relation to the probably cause or suspicion that he has that led him to ask for your ID totally different concept. Simply providing the ID and demonstrating you are not the person in question or ID to demonstrate you are legally in an area doing things that are legal for you to be doing there is enough to stop the process. I probably didn't state that clearly enough in the selections of my posts that you have quoted and highlighted, but the internet is a great thing that way in that arguments become too literal and more of a tit for tat type routine.

Probably should start a new thread, maybe with an example to remove the ambiguity.

As always, I'm not a lawyer, although I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, so like all answers and debates on the internet, consult a paid professional before putting anything to the test. Now if you want to know why potassium is a useful tool for dating rocks, I got you covered.

Malladus

 

[kingofwylietx]

There are numerous threads across the internet in most gun-forums where folks beat this dead horse with a stick constantly. The general consensus seems to end up in one of two camps:

(1) Unless they charge me or tell me I am a suspicous person and why, no way am I going to ID myself.

(2) I got nothing to hide so why does it matter.

Yep, that looks like where we are going. I'll avoid the explanation and just say put me under column #2.



Oh, yeah, why is potassium a useful tool for dating rocks?

 

[txinvestigator]

Three seperate arguments.

(1) Can an LEO ask you for identification?
(2) Do you have to provide?
(3) Can you be arrested for not providing it?

Answer to the first is yes he can given reasonable cause. He does not need you to be performing a licensed activity to initiate a contact and request ID, he simply needs reasonable cause or suspicion that he can support in a court of law for stopping you and asking for ID. Its typically considered good form for him to explain to you why he is making those request (looks good on the trial showing of the video).

At that point it becomes question two, a matter of your civil rights to provide ID. Should you choose not to, you are within in your rights to say no or not have it on you.

Which leads to three, the officer however is legally able to detain you should he have enough reasonable suspicion that you are the person in question or have just commited a crime. He is not detaining you for not providing ID, but for whatever reason he stopped you in the first place. You refusal or inability to provide ID is beside the point, but becomes a legal issue as you have pointed out once he detains or arrests you. I probably wasn't to clear about that and made it sound like he was arresting you for not having ID.

Again, even if you are legally detained, you are not required to ID yourself or otherwise speak to the officer. (please understand this is an academic discussion for me. I intend to cooperate if I ever need to. )

This is demonstrated almost daily by police officers stopping and arresting suspects. Lack of ID is not a viable defense for arrest or detention should they have reasonable suspicion or cause.

Of course. The person is arrested for some other offense having nothing to do with identifying himself.

Once they slap the cuffs on you and start processing you then the penal code kicks in.

For refusing to ID it does. However, if you are legally detained or believed to be a witness to a crime it is an offense to give a false name, DOB and Address. He cannot charge you with Fail to ID for refusing to ID yourself unless you are arrested.

The big key is probably cause, without it the officer is not justified in doing anything, heck he as much right as the next guy on the street to ask you for ID or to sleep with your wife. But if he's got probably cause it changes the game. Enough probable cause and he well within his rights to detain you until they can verify that you are or not the person they are looking for within the limits of the law before having to process you for arrest.

I assume your writing "probably cause" is a typo.

This is another issue. A LEO cannot detain you until he positively knows who you are, unless under arrest. If you match a description of a suspect, he can detain you for a "field lineup" and such within the confines of established case law.

You keep referring to the penal code, what is really being discussed is a matter of civil rights as in as far as an officer has the right to acertain your identity given reasonable cause or suspicious behavior.

The penal code is where LAWS are. A peace officer has NO RIGHT to ascertain your identity given anything, short of arresting you. What would be my consequence to refuse?

The Texas penal code simple provides in basic terms the reasons for which you can be charged with a crime and the charges those cirmes carry. They do not act as a guidance for LEO's contacts with the public. The Texas Penal code does not set forth the actual rules under which an officer may request ID in a broader sense.

Exactly. He can ASK anyone he wants, the question is do you have a legal obligation to identify yourself. Unless you are under arrest the answer is NO.


I am not an attorney either, but I am a former LEO.

 

[malladus]

It's all about radioactive decay. I'll start another thread for yeah if you have issues sleeping at night the how and why work wonders for putting you to sleep.

If your serious I'll start another thread in off-topic.

Malladus

Yep, that looks like where we are going. I'll avoid the explanation and just say put me under column #2.



Oh, yeah, why is potassium a useful tool for dating rocks?

 

[kingofwylietx]

It's all about radioactive decay. I'll start another thread for yeah if you have issues sleeping at night the how and why work wonders for putting you to sleep.

If your serious I'll start another thread in off-topic.

Malladus

I was just curious.......and not to get too far off-topic....but I found alcohol is a useful tool for dating ugly people. Just kidding....I better stop before I get flamed.

I'll google the rock thing.

 

[drj3828]

About six months after Texas started the CHL I got my CHL, about three months after that I was driving thru Onalska TX when I got stopped by this big firearms ignorant police officer(she shoulh have been in the WWF). I was carring my brand new Kimber at the time back then you had to present your CHL with your DL's. When she found out I had the CHL and was carring it she ask for it grip first. The pistol was cocked and locked she was trying to unload it but with the safety on the slide would not move. I tried to tell her but she told me she new how to operate a "Weapon". About that time she dropped it on the pavement! That is when I came unglued, she demanded that I calm down that's when I told here that the pistol cost more than what she made in two weeks!
She then instructed me to calm down or she would have to haul me in! That's when I said for what? She did'nt answer me either. She then went back to her patrol car for some reason and got on the radio. About two min latter another LEO showed up and he unloaded the 1911 for her.
She came back to the vehicle I was in and gave me a verbal warning for speeding! she handed me my Kimber back and the magazine and one round and told me I was free to go!
I then ask what she was going to do about my scratched up Kimber. She said there was nothing she could do or my self. I then ask for the name and phone number of the Chief of Police in that town. Man that must of tripped a breaker then. She turned red and started to shake and told me the best thing to do was to go on and forget about the incident.
Well that was on a Saturday on the following Monday I call the county sheriff office and ask them the name and phone number of the chief of police in Onalska, they gave it to me with no problems. And then called the Chief and told him my story, He then told me that he would do what ever it took to make things right. All I ask of him was to get the pistol refinished and he agreeded. He came to my house whitch was 45 miles away and picked it up with a reciept of course and had it fixed and returned it also.
He also apolagized for his officers wrong doing in the situation.
DRJ

 

[malladus]

I can send you some links in a PM.

To get the dope on what I did, google Ar/Ar, AR40/39 or K/Ar dating.

Malladus

I was just curious.......and not to get too far off-topic....but I found alcohol is a useful tool for dating ugly people. Just kidding....I better stop before I get flamed.

I'll google the rock thing.

 

[kingofwylietx]

It sounds similar to using uranium, but I guess the half-life of uranium is longer. I read a little about it, but was beginning to develope a headache.