Choice of Personal Defense Ammo and where you buy it

[Vellcrow]

what is a "bonded" round?

Here is the info sheet on it:

[url]http://www.winchester.com/products/newitems/pdx1.aspx[/URL]

 

[Mate]

I personally use the Winchester bonded 147 gr talons, Winchester 124 gr PDX-1, or Speer 124 gr gold dots.

Pulling this next bit straight off of Doctor Gary Roberts page on M4carbine.net. -

When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:

As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: [url]http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm[/URL] .

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 160 & 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

 

[M. Sage]

Here's my personal list of rounds I prefer:

-Corbon DPX
-Federal HST (impossible to find)
-Winchester Ranger T or SXT
-Speer Gold Dot
-Winchester PDX1 Bonded

I use Corbon DPX the most because Cabela's usually has some in stock, and it is one of the most consistent expanding rounds I've seen in all the ballistics tests I've studied. The Federal HST seems to be about equally as good and a tie for number one, though considering it is an issued round for lots of LE departments (or so I hear) it is pretty hard to get a hold of.

For some reason, as old as Speer gold dots are, they still seem to perform very well in all the ballistics tests I've seen. I would feel perfectly fine relying on gold dots as they are about as tried and true as it gets considering the long term usage by tons of LE departments.

If a gun has tons of trouble feeding most JHP's, I highly recommend using Corbon Pow'RBall's as they have a perfect round FMJ profile and feed perfectly in everything I've ever tried them in. Not as ballistically good as a true JHP, but definitely better than an FMJ.

I haven't been particularly impressed with the Hornady Critical Defense. I've seen a few tests done (check M4C.net) that produced lackluster results.

I've done a lot of researching and come to pretty much the same results. The only thing different for me is that I haven't researched Hornady Critical Defense, so I can't comment on that.

My Sig is stuffed with 9 rounds of standard-pressure HST in 230 grain. It eats 'em like a kid eats candy. I buy them wherever I can find them (which is almost nowhere). I used to have 200 rounds of it saved up, I'm down to about a hundred.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

HST stands for Hydrashok Tactical. They are a completely different round from the old original Hydrashok's, and not comparable.

There are some newer and better rounds out there than the Speer Gold Dots, however for whatever reason, as long as the Gold Dots have been around they still manage to be very consistent at expansion over a wide range of barriers.

 

[TSU45]

7.62x25 FMJ. A little slow but it gets r done.

 

[Big country]

HST stands for Hydrashok Tactical. They are a completely different round from the old original Hydrashok's, and not comparable.

There are some newer and better rounds out there than the Speer Gold Dots, however for whatever reason, as long as the Gold Dots have been around they still manage to be very consistent at expansion over a wide range of barriers.

That is what I thought. I think that is what I carry after all but mine still have the "rod" in the middle. Anyway, I have heard good things about this Hornady "critical defence" but I don't think it is offered in .40. Is that true?

 

[radioflyer]

Does anyone use +P for their personal defense ammo? Are there certain pistols that should avoid it?

 

[navyguy]

As far as where to buy HST, I've only seen them in a gun store once, and that was a while back. Federal markets them as LE ammo, so they are not likely to be in places such as Cabela's or Bass Pro. You might find them in shops that cater to LE. I get mine on line when I can find them. Ammo to go had some a few weeks ago, but current check shows none in stock there.

Tactical Defense Solutions has some has some 165 g .40 Bonded, 124 g 9mm +p and some 230 g .45.

Tactical Defense Solutions LLC - Federal Tactical LEO

 

[Texas42]

Does anyone use +P for their personal defense ammo? Are there certain pistols that should avoid it?

Your gun's manual should say. If you've lost the manual, google it. It should be online. All else fails, call the gun manufacturer.

Even if your gun can shoot it, it will wear more on your gun. IMHO +P is really only beneficial in a short barreled gun (that really needs the extra 70 or 120 fps).

I have it in some of my guns simply because they only +p in the HD ammo I've got.

 

[Big country]

As far as where to buy HST, I've only seen them in a gun store once, and that was a while back. Federal markets them as LE ammo, so they are not likely to be in places such as Cabela's or Bass Pro. You might find them in shops that cater to LE. I get mine on line when I can find them. Ammo to go had some a few weeks ago, but current check shows none in stock there.

Tactical Defense Solutions has some has some 165 g .40 Bonded, 124 g 9mm +p and some 230 g .45.

Tactical Defense Solutions LLC - Federal Tactical LEO

I get mine in a 50 round box at GT distributors, I think this is on their LEO only list (not sure).

 

[Big country]

O and thanks Mate for posting the penetration results! Very helpful info. What round did they do their testing with?

 

[Mate]

At the time of testing it was done with the Winchester Ranger Talons.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Hornady Critical Defense ammo is only offered in .380, 9mm, .38 special, and .38 special +P currently. They designed the ammo for short-barreled guns for carry. I would love to see it in .40 and .45 though. (maybe we'll see it in 2010)?!?!

 

[Big country]

At the time of testing it was done with the Winchester Ranger Talons.

Thanks, I thought it was the Winchester HP's but wasn't sure.

Hornady Critical Defense ammo is only offered in .380, 9mm, .38 special, and .38 special +P currently. They designed the ammo for short-barreled guns for carry. I would love to see it in .40 and .45 though. (maybe we'll see it in 2010)?!?!

Yeah that is the base they started with, but someone told me that Hornady was going to start offering the critical defence in .40 and .45. I guess they didn't know what they were talking about tho.

 

[Texas42]

Critical Defense 380 Auto shot from a Ruger LCP through heavy clothing.

This is kind of impressive. I'll start looking for some for my pocket pistol

 

[Big country]

That's pretty good for a 380. How close were they? About 10' or I would think. And what constitutes "heavy clothing" ?

 

[Texas42]

probably a piece of denim, at a perpendicular angle than that of the bullet.

I imagine this stuff gets a lot worse (all bullets) when the angles aren't just right.

 

[Big country]

Most likely a piece of old blue jeans and about 10'.

 

[htxred]

one of the employee's father shoot some telephone books today. 3 to be exact, the only round that exited was the 9mm 115gr +p+ winchester ranger.

 

[radioflyer]

Most likely a piece of old blur jeans and about 10'.

bell-bottoms = body armor....lol