Ever want to buy a used gun but...

[seeker_two]

I filled out a BOS for Moonpie's Hi-Power. Even signed for him so I wouldn't disturb his range time. I just hope he brings it to me soon before I have to file a police report....

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[Axxe55]

I filled out a BOS for Moonpie's Hi-Power. Even signed for him so I wouldn't disturb his range time. I just hope he brings it to me soon before I have to file a police report....

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I'm sure it has just slipped his mind!

 

[Coyote9]

https://texasguntrader.com/billofsale.pdf

There's others...

Search string "Texas firearms bill of sale"

The current environment of anti gunners willing to finance legal support and court costs for any litigant with a gun control supporting case, will certainly see an increase in frivolous law suits. A handshake might be risky as well, however I trust a person over a lawyer clear to sundown!

 

[rotor]

I'm confused.
If you sold a gun to an individual who is a felon, and you didn't know it.
You both exchanged your BOS, and there you go.
Later, he is arrested with the gun, and BOS proving that you sold it to him.
Wouldn't that be how?

Confused? A BOS will show who the gun was sold to but how does a BOS prove that one knowingly sold to a felon? I am confused now. If the BOS has the buyer certifying that he is not restricted, etc., signing and providing DL, etc. how does a BOS implicate the seller into knowingly selling to a felon. Just the reverse in my mind. Is there case law on this? The lawyers for the LTC insurance programs recommend getting a BOS when selling. I think perhaps you have not seen a BOS and need to actually read what the buyer is signing and affirming when he/she signs the form. I agree that a BOS provides info leading back to the seller but so does a 4473. A gun is used in a crime, cops track gun to dealer that sold it, they pull 4473 and it leads to you as the buyer of that gun. You then have to do what to prove that you didn't sell to a felon.? Who knows, cops may accuse you of committing the crime even though you claim you sold it to someone years ago and don't know who you sold it to. All hypothetical.

I really don't want to go over the whole debate again but I just don't believe the comments that having a BOS is proof someone sold to a felon. My belief is that the buyer and seller can make their own terms and decide if they want a BOS and it is not anyone else business.

 

[Axxe55]

Rotor, the BOS doesn't prove you sold a gun to a felon, but it does prove you sold a gun to that person. It establishes a paper trail. It lays the groundwork for them to put you between a rock and a hard place.

No BOS, no proof of any transaction ever took place. Hard to prove anything with no proof.

 

[rotor]

I think the real question and debate

Rotor, the BOS doesn't prove you sold a gun to a felon, but it does prove you sold a gun to that person. It establishes a paper trail. It lays the groundwork for them to put you between a rock and a hard place.

No BOS, no proof of any transaction ever took place. Hard to prove anything with no proof.

The comments were that a BOS was used to prove one sold to a felon and that was what I was debating. Obviously the BOS provides a paper trail but could just as logically prove that one did not knowingly sell to a felon. If the cops track the gun to you by a 4473 I would think a paper trail showing who you sold it to would be desirable. I would like to be able to tell them that Joe Shmo bought the gun and here is his address. Joe Shmo can deal with the cops.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Go back and look, I said "even not knowing".
If you sell a gun to a felon, without knowing he's a felon, didn't you still sell a gun to a felon?

 

[Axxe55]

I think the real question and debate

The comments were that a BOS was used to prove one sold to a felon and that was what I was debating. Obviously the BOS provides a paper trail but could just as logically prove that one did not knowingly sell to a felon. If the cops track the gun to you by a 4473 I would think a paper trail showing who you sold it to would be desirable. I would like to be able to tell them that Joe Shmo bought the gun and here is his address. Joe Shmo can deal with the cops.

If they tracked the gun to you from the 4473, then they have the gun! and possibly Joe Shmo too! That is their problem to deal with. Not mine.

 

[rotor]

If they tracked the gun to you from the 4473, then they have the gun! and possibly Joe Shmo too! That is their problem to deal with. Not mine.

Exactly, and the only way they would know that you sold the gun to Joe Shmo was because you still had the BOS so I don't see how this would be your problem but Joe Shmo has to deal with it. So, logically a BOS helped you in this case, right?

 

[Axxe55]

Exactly, and the only way they would know that you sold the gun to Joe Shmo was because you still had the BOS so I don't see how this would be your problem but Joe Shmo has to deal with it. So, logically a BOS helped you in this case, right?

They obviously have the gun, because they tracked to gun back through the 4473. And they got Joe Shmo, (a felon in possession of a gun). Seems like Joe Shmo has the problem. With my name on the 4473, I had legally purchased that gun they have. I sold the gun. Joe Shmo the felon, committed a crime with the gun. His huge problem. Not mine. If i were questioned about the gun, and there is no BOS, I simply sold a gun to somebody, and can't recall who it was. With no BOS, they have nothing, and need to worry about Joe Shmo having a gun and committing a crime.

Not my circus, not my monkeys!

With a BOS, what if Joe Shmo tries to make some sort of deal. Like he told you he had a felony record and you sold him a gun anyways. Now they got you by the short hairs. Joe Shmo is clearly lying to get a sweeter deal, but that doesn't help you, does it? Joe's a criminal, who committed another crime with a gun you sold him. Think he won't lie to help himself out if possible?

No BOS, doesn't matter what lie Joe Shmo wants to tell to help make a sweeter deal. They got nothing with no BOS.

 

[Charlie]

All this crap about a worthless piece of paper called a BOS can be solved in an instant!

DON'T SELL GUNS!

 

[Axxe55]

In a nut shell, I'd rather take my chances with no BOS than take my chances with a BOS.

 

[Charlie]

Absolutely! (If I was ever going to sell a gun again!)

 

[Axxe55]

Absolutely! (If I was ever going to sell a gun again!)

I have gotten much more selective and do more research into guns I buy, so that decreases the chances I will end up selling a gun I buy.

 

[Charlie]

I won't sell any of my guns at this point in my life. My daughters and my nephew will get them when I'm gone.

 

[rotor]

They obviously have the gun, because they tracked to gun back through the 4473. And they got Joe Shmo, (a felon in possession of a gun). Seems like Joe Shmo has the problem. With my name on the 4473, I had legally purchased that gun they have. I sold the gun. Joe Shmo the felon, committed a crime with the gun. His huge problem. Not mine. If i were questioned about the gun, and there is no BOS, I simply sold a gun to somebody, and can't recall who it was. With no BOS, they have nothing, and need to worry about Joe Shmo having a gun and committing a crime.

Not my circus, not my monkeys!

With a BOS, what if Joe Shmo tries to make some sort of deal. Like he told you he had a felony record and you sold him a gun anyways. Now they got you by the short hairs. Joe Shmo is clearly lying to get a sweeter deal, but that doesn't help you, does it? Joe's a criminal, who committed another crime with a gun you sold him. Think he won't lie to help himself out if possible?

No BOS, doesn't matter what lie Joe Shmo wants to tell to help make a sweeter deal. They got nothing with no BOS.

The argument was that the BOS proved the gun was sold to a felon. Nobody has shown a case where that happened. The person swearing the status on the BOS is the buyer. My argument is that a BOS does not prove you sold your gun to a felon. That's it. It may help prove you did not sell to a felon or prohibited person. Use what you like or use nothing. No difference to me. Anyone here want to show a case where a BOS was used to prove a seller sold to a prohibited person? Please list that case.

 

[Axxe55]

The argument was that the BOS proved the gun was sold to a felon. Nobody has shown a case where that happened. The person swearing the status on the BOS is the buyer. My argument is that a BOS does not prove you sold your gun to a felon. That's it. It may help prove you did not sell to a felon or prohibited person. Use what you like or use nothing. No difference to me. Anyone here want to show a case where a BOS was used to prove a seller sold to a prohibited person? Please list that case.

Okay, I see what you're saying. No it doesn't prove, IMO that the person you sold the gun to was a felon, but it does directly link you and the gun to that specific person.

Like I said, what if Joe Shmo is trying to cut a better deal and says you did know he was a felon? Of course Joe is lying, and how are you going to prove he's lying. You and him have a BOS linking the two of you to that pistol.

No BOS, there is nothing linking you and Joe together with that pistol. His word against yours. Your a legal purchaser of a gun and he's a felon. Who do you think the cops are then going to believe?

I'll stand still on no BOS ever.

 

[rotor]

Okay, I see what you're saying. No it doesn't prove, IMO that the person you sold the gun to was a felon, but it does directly link you and the gun to that specific person.

Like I said, what if Joe Shmo is trying to cut a better deal and says you did know he was a felon? Of course Joe is lying, and how are you going to prove he's lying. You and him have a BOS linking the two of you to that pistol.

No BOS, there is nothing linking you and Joe together with that pistol. His word against yours. Your a legal purchaser of a gun and he's a felon. Who do you think the cops are then going to believe?

I'll stand still on no BOS ever.

This is not nuclear science. Paper trail shows Joe Shmo bought the gun, certified that he was not prohibited.
No BOS and cops want me to prove what happened to a gun used in a crime, last shown to be my gun.

Daughter had a car titled in my name that was wrecked. Insurance company sold said car and all of a sudden I am getting parking tickets on said car. Let me tell you, hard to deal with. Got the insurance company to send me a copy of the BOS that they used when car was sold and was able to get all of those tickets off of my name. Without such paperwork I don't know what would have happened.

 

[Axxe55]

This is not nuclear science. Paper trail shows Joe Shmo bought the gun, certified that he was not prohibited.
No BOS and cops want me to prove what happened to a gun used in a crime, last shown to be my gun.

Daughter had a car titled in my name that was wrecked. Insurance company sold said car and all of a sudden I am getting parking tickets on said car. Let me tell you, hard to deal with. Got the insurance company to send me a copy of the BOS that they used when car was sold and was able to get all of those tickets off of my name. Without such paperwork I don't know what would have happened.

I understand what you're saying, but a car and a gun are totally different.

I sell a gun to somebody, and it's used in a crime. Gun is tracked back to me from the 4473. Big deal. I didn't commit the crime and wasn't involved. No BOS. They can't prove anything. Not my place as a law-abiding citizen to prove my innocence. They would have to prove I was guilty, or involved with the crime. No BOS, not one shred of any proof.

This is purely a personal preference on the choice of the person selling a gun to an individual. I'm not telling anyone how to conduct their business. If I buy a gun and want it all proper and legal, I'll buy from a gun dealer and fill out a 4473. But if I buy a gun in private deal between two private individuals, I figure to meet the state's legal requirements and nothing more. I will verify that I'm a legal Texas resident and nothing more. No BOS will be exchanged. None.

 

[Hoji]

I'll chime in with my own thoughts on a bill of sale.

A BOS is meaning less unless one has a Notary witness the signatures as being the people signing the BOS.
A BOS provides no proof the item (gun) is stolen or if either party knows it's stolen.
A BOS provides no implied warranty, etc.
A BOS provides no information that indicates the seller is the owner of the firearm.
A BOS does not prove the person selling or buying is a citizen of the state.
Etc., Etc.

But having several of them could prove you are an unlicensed dealer and get you time in club fed.