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  • rmantoo

    Cranky old fart: Pull my finger
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    Jan 9, 2013
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    There's others...

    Search string "Texas firearms bill of sale"

    If you're responding to my post, please reread my post... bills of sale are simple to find... in fact, googlging to find the background story that Deemus, and others, referred to, produces at least 20 PAGES of results...almost all of which are free bills of sale...


    There will I guess be a lot more posts. How would a BOS prove a gun was sold to a felon? Are you a felon, the yes box is checked?

    I never, in any way, asserted any of the things you wrote...

    I simply asked for some kind of citation or location or serach terms to use to find some kind background story- the actual story, hopefully, to back up this: "There are actual court cases where a person executed a bill of sale. Buyer used the gun in a crime. Bill of sale came into play that proved sale of the gun to a felon. Which turned the seller into a felon since he sold the gun to a felon."



    I'm not inquiring about, or asking for more opinions on getting/using/wiping with a BOS... I simply want to read about the cases that people are referring to.

    I have a lot of acquaintances who are hobby gun guys...they buy, play with, get bored with, and then sell quite a few guns. Although there are federal regs on some of this, those regs carry the force of law- even though they were never voted on- and those regs are VERY vague in some area... so I'd like to read about people who were caught up in them....

    Thanks in advance
    Gun Zone Deals
     

    Dougw1515

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    I'd have lit his butt up like a cheap Christmas tree, myself - and have done so more than once. BOS records have been used to successfully prosecute sellers for being "unlicensed dealers". And as noted - are they offering proof that THEY legally own AND can sell the gun??

    I've actually seen more of the younger crowd going for the BOS, often because they've heard it repeated so often by the idiots that have no clue. Funny thing is, I've seen sellers change their minds when I start to walk away with my money.
    When I went to buy my FNS-9C the add mentioned nothing about a BOS. We meet. Seller pulls the gun out and hands it to me. I see BOS on front seat but say nothing. I check the gun out, seems good, so I say "I'll take it!" and start reaching for my cash. Seller reaches in car to retrieve BOS I look at'em and say "Ad said nothing about BOS! and start putting cash back in wallet. Seller gets this surprised look on his face and say's "You don't want a BOS?" Nope! say I. You'da thought someone had poured gasoline on it and set it on fire they way he got rid of that BOS!!!
     

    rotor

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    I never, in any way, asserted any of the things you wrote...

    I simply asked for some kind of citation or location or serach terms to use to find some kind background story- the actual story, hopefully, to back up this: "There are actual court cases where a person executed a bill of sale. Buyer used the gun in a crime. Bill of sale came into play that proved sale of the gun to a felon. Which turned the seller into a felon since he sold the gun to a felon."


    And I agreed with you, where are all of those cases that show a BOS proved sale of gun was to a felon? There are none.
     

    Moonpie

    Omnipotent Potentate for hire.
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    Gunz are icky.
    Just for discussions sake:

    Whats the legality of using a fake ID on a private sale BOS?
    The person who you're buying it from isn't a licensed gun dealer.
    So what if you give him a fake name and address?
    He could do the same you and you have no way of verifying it.
     

    Wolfwood

    Self Appointed Board Chauvinist
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    May 12, 2009
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    so providing false identification to law enforcement, banks and other places it is legally required is a crime and should be.

    any lawyers here want to chime in on the legality of using a fake id and signing with your off hand to obscure the handwriting for a document with no legal purpose or weight?

    asking for a friend

    (only on pg 4 so if this has been brought up please forgive, i didnt want to forget by page 25)
     

    Wolfwood

    Self Appointed Board Chauvinist
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    oh damn dood. i was typing that 5 minutes ago and got called away before hitting reply.

    *facepalm*
     

    Wolfwood

    Self Appointed Board Chauvinist
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    shit.PNG


    damn. i wonder if there is a specific size of text that needs to be used for the "Not a Government Document" notification
     

    rotor

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    Just for discussions sake:

    Whats the legality of using a fake ID on a private sale BOS?
    The person who you're buying it from isn't a licensed gun dealer.
    So what if you give him a fake name and address?
    He could do the same you and you have no way of verifying it.
    Let's assume that one guy is honest and one guy is not and you are the honest guy. What possible legal problem would you have as the honest person, none. I would say that it is possible for a person buying a gun to use a fake id and that person still might be perfectly legal to buy a gun. Same question without a BOS. Dude shows you a fake id and you sell gun. Dude may or may not be legally able to buy a gun but there is no way you would be doing anything illegal selling it. Let's say sale was through a dealer and fake id was used and fake id cleared background check. Possible I guess. Same thing.
     

    Axxe55

    Retiretgtshit stirrer
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    Dec 15, 2019
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    Lost in East Texas Elhart Texas
    And what is the magic number of guns a person could or does sell, that then the BATF determines they are an unlicensed gun dealer?

    There isn't one. could be a couple or couple dozen. All depends on the agent and his discretion.

    So IMO, having a stack of BOS's on the guns you sold to other people in private sales, could be proof for an agent to arrest you for being an unlicensed gun dealer.

    Just my observation. No BOS, and they don't have the first clue as to how many private transactions you have done.
     

    Wolfwood

    Self Appointed Board Chauvinist
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    IIRC the rules are along the lines of "buy sell trade to increase or improve your personal collection, not as a source of income"

    if for instance you routinely buy a whole bunch of identical lets say, glocks, for 450 and wait for some kind of market spike, then dump them at 1200
    you could be in the splash zone.

    thats my personal understanding.

    kindof the opposite of the FFL rule that you aren't to use your FFL to increase your personal collection
    (excluding C&R licensees this is one of the main differences between the two FFL types)\

    - edits for clarification -
     

    candcallen

    Crotchety, Snarky, Truthful. You'll get over it.
    Emeritus - "Texas Proud"
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    2   0   0
    Jul 23, 2011
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    Little Elm
    And what is the magic number of guns a person could or does sell, that then the BATF determines they are an unlicensed gun dealer?

    There isn't one. could be a couple or couple dozen. All depends on the agent and his discretion.

    So IMO, having a stack of BOS's on the guns you sold to other people in private sales, could be proof for an agent to arrest you for being an unlicensed gun dealer.

    Just my observation. No BOS, and they don't have the first clue as to how many private transactions you have done.


    That depends on weather you have anti gun tards running things. Obama thought just a couple and talked about it often.

    Mostly when you brag about buying only to sell at a profit or to flip for a profit you are kinda phucking yourself on that one. Otherwise its impossible to prove. That dont mean they wont try.

    Like most crimes, you kinda gotta screw yourself on that one.

    Oh, the internet is forever and mined for data to an extent I doubt most even comprehend. Dont think for a second "they" couldnt have a clue about how many private transactions you have. Evey click, post, pic and even use of certain key words are stored some where. That goes for talking on regular or cell phones too. Snowden clearly showed that.

    It doesn't have to be the NSA doing it either.

    If there was/or ever will be a real life skynet like "thing" it will come from google. I'm all for destroying them as an organization and blowing up their infrastructure and forcibly deleting all data mined info.

    We've done it to our selves.

    Now where's my tin foil jock.
     

    rmantoo

    Cranky old fart: Pull my finger
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    It doesn't have to be the NSA doing it either.

    If there was/or ever will be a real life skynet like "thing" it will come from google. I'm all for destroying them as an organization and blowing up their infrastructure and forcibly deleting all data mined info.

    Peter Thiel's company does almost exactly that. They are basically a credit and background agency, with none of the restrictions or rules placed on those agencies.

    They are used by large companies as background 'research' tools... Palantir call itself a 'big data analytics' company... well, they basically buy, and are on data feeds from every company that will sign a contract with them.

    I have an acquaintance who works for a specialty programming company which in turn...might work for a company much like them...might even rhyme... For fun one day, he put my name (robert williams...one of the most common names in the northern hemisphere, seems like) and asked for one kinda vague personal history data point- I have him the name of the first street I lived on when I was in Austin. I rented a room from a lady in a private home. No lease, no utility bills, nothing like that at the address was in my name, and I only lived there about 4 months- I never changed my drivers license to that address...

    He put my name and that street name only in, and then started reading off bits and pieces of the 64+ pages that came up. My entire credit history, a bunch of leases and mortgage docs, and just about every govt doc (including, somehow, my DD214). He said the query came back as being a 99.4% confidence that it was me...

    The craziest data point that came back was that in 1988 while stationed in FRG for the US Army, I mail ordered an Ibanez electric guitar. I paid for it w/their 6-month financing program, and THAT came back, as well as the model #, color, and the labor and parts numbers for the stock hubucker being swapped with an upgrade....

    I truly believe that ANYTHING we've pretty much ever done that was entered into a computer somewhere is now available to companies like panlantir.
     

    tonelar

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    4   0   0
    Aug 9, 2009
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    i seem to recall a vague reference to “occasional” sales

    like “i sold that cause it was @ the 4th of july”

    kidding aside

    back in Kalifornia some LEOs got in trouble for dealing without a license. they were routinely buying handguns then selling them for double the price (they sold big enough quantities that ATF and CA DOJ caught on)
     
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