Federal HST 40 S&W: 165 gr VS. 180 gr

[BurkGlocker]

I bought three boxes of each, and took them out to the range. I didnt do any penetration testing just expansion testing, in gallon jugs of water. The 180 grainers expanded over .100" more than the 165 gr bullets. Even the one round of 180 gr that I put through 4 layers of denim out-expanded the 165 gr bullets. I also put them up against some 165 gr Ranger T-Series that I had, and they were larger than the T-Series bullets... As soon as I can find a camera with the ability to take suitable quality pictures, I will post some pics.

Brad

 

[navyguy]

Interesting. I've always leaned towards the heavier bullets,

 

[BurkGlocker]

Top two from left are 180 grain, the first one just through water and sitting on a quarter, the other through four layers of denim. The two below that are 165 gr HSTs just through water. The two on the far right are Ranger T-Series, 165 gr. Just a nasty, nasty round...

 

[SIG_Fiend]

HST's are some of the best quality JHP's out there that I've found.

 

[BurkGlocker]

I could never find any for the .45, but have used them in my 9mm and .40 and am quite impressed with their peformance. Next thing I need to do is make some more 'ballistics gelatin' to really test these boogers out. I literally have over 200 spent bullets that I have tested over the past two years. I jsut love doing it. Too bad I couldnt make money at it... LOL

The thing that got me is that it seems that the heavier the bullet weight, the more they expand. I looked at the 165s and 180s side by side and it seems that the serrations down the sides of the bullet goes down farther on the 180 than on the 165. It even seemed true on the 124 and 147 grainers in 9mm. I put an expanded 147 gr next to a 165gr and the 9mm was larger in diameter than the .40.

Another issue that I have is that i was looking at my new rounds and noticed that one of the rounds was shorter than the rest. I pulled it out and looked at it and the bullet has been pushed into the case at least .080", maybe more. I dont have a bullet puller of any kind, but I was going to try to save this round but I dont know. I sure the hell am not going to shoot that round, thats for damn shit sure.

 

[navyguy]

HST's are some of the best quality JHP's out there that I've found.

I agree. Although the old Hydra Shoks are still a pretty good defense round (and all I've been able to find for .45) the HST's, are steller while provideing a non +p option.

 

[Texas42]

Huh, I would have expected the lighter bullets to expand more. I do find it interesting that the 9's expanded more.

I guess it has to do with bullet contruction.

Cool.

 

[BurkGlocker]

Huh, I would have expected the lighter bullets to expand more. I do find it interesting that the 9's expanded more.

I guess it has to do with bullet contruction.

Cool.

See, and that was my thinking as well, lighter, faster would equate into a bullet that expanded more, but that wasnt the case. Here is a pic of some that went through denim, and you can tell that the heavies expanded more.

There is a noticable difference in the two weights, thats for damn sure.

 

[KellyAsh]

Great testing and pics! Keep them coming! Very worthwhile. It would make a great sticky thread of its own dedicated to finding the best performing rounds for TGT. Maybe a king of the hill type thing. I would say start with Gold Dots as they are some the best expanding rounds out there short of the Powrballs and Critical Defense types and hard to beat. It does make sense that the heavier bullets expand more as a heavier bullet = more kinetic energy. More kinetic energy = more things being pushed around. Also, the heavier bullet would have more penetration allowing more time to expand.

 

[navyguy]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see much difference between the 147 and the 147 +P. At least not those at the top. And the 124 gr +P is quite a bit behind in expansion width, (less metal to expand) although they are very uniform. If I had to choose a 9mm round based on those examples, I'd go with the standard pressure 147 gr. I guess what we're missing is the penetration, which the edge should go to the 147 gr +P.

Thanks for posting that.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Another question, does not the heavier bullet have more metal with which to expand???

 

[BurkGlocker]

Another question, does not the heavier bullet have more metal with which to expand???

Yes, it does, but like I said earlier, the skives go way down the side of the bullet, possibly aiding even more in their expansion capabilities. My question is, will the smaller diameter of the lighter weight bullet neglect energy transfer?

 

[Big country]

Good thread. I carry an XD 40 service with 180gr Hydra Shoks (the original Hydra Shocks) And I did do a little bit of research before I picked this round to carry on duty and the 180gr by all accounts that I've seen/read about say that there tests showed that while the 180gr will do a better job of staying in their target. A definite plus when you carry a gun around a crowded area.

 

[BurkGlocker]

In my opinion (as much as it matters ) the faster a bullet expands, and the larger it expands, the more energy is going to be transfered to the target. Penetration is also a factor, but the HST has proven that it can 'go the distance' so to speak. Most of the testing that they have done shows that the 180 gr penetrates anywhere from 11.5-14". Thats plenty enough for me.

I had Hydra-Shoks loaded in my G21SF at first, but after testing them through denim, I started looking for another round. Expansion was iffy, and most of the time, the only way that I had them expand when encountering barriers was if it was shot at point blank range (<5 feet). At >10 feet, the expansion was hit and miss. Two would expand, then three wouldnt, then vice-versa. They were the Godfather in their day, but I will stick to the newer designs, and when another one comes out that will supercede this design, I'll probably still be using HSTs...LOL I honestly dont think that they can improve on the HST design. Not unless they make a bullet that can cook me dinner, I will stick with them...

Brad

 

[KellyAsh]

What's yall's take on the HST vs the Gold Dot? Ive been a loyal follower of the Gold Dot based on expansion reliability tests. Is there any advantage to the HST over the Gold Dot that I'm missing? They seem pretty neck and neck to me.

 

[Big country]

What's yall's take on the HST vs the Gold Dot? Ive been a loyal follower of the Gold Dot based on expansion reliability tests. Is there any advantage to the HST over the Gold Dot that I'm missing? They seem pretty neck and neck to me.

I've heard good things about both honestly. I know robocop10mm likes his gold dot's (10mm IIRC) but I hear the new HST's are really good. I stick to my "old school cop rounds" because they fly good out of my gun and I can't find any HST's. I need to get a box of gold dot's, HST's, and Hydra Shocks and take them to the range to see witch one shoots straighter. My pistol game needs a lot of work but from the bench at 15 yds I can get a pretty good Idea of what is more accurate.

 

[Texas42]

What's yall's take on the HST vs the Gold Dot? Ive been a loyal follower of the Gold Dot based on expansion reliability tests. Is there any advantage to the HST over the Gold Dot that I'm missing? They seem pretty neck and neck to me.

I think they are both excellent bullets. I think the HST is newer and it probably designed more for expansion vs. penetration than the Gold dots. I don't think the HST's are "bonded," like the gold dots are.

Carry what you like. Both are great.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I typed up a huge paragraph, but I think I'll get straight to the point. Honestly, between the JHP's you're talking about, it's not that big a deal. They're both great rounds. Just choose one and know that you're getting a great one either way. I've waste countless man hours of my life studying ballistics, ballistic wounding factors, browsing countless internet posts from LE/Mil professionals and ballistics experts, reading books compiled by FBI ballistics experts, etc all to come to that simple conclusion. Take it from me, save yourself the time, choose one, and put that valuable energy towards something more useful like training.

 

[M. Sage]

Yeah, pretty much any latest-generation (HST, Gold Dot, Ranger-T, etc.) hollow point is going to perform almost identically.

And yes, the HSTs are bonded. They're very well bonded, in fact. Some of the tests I've found amazed me that the HST held together. Windshields are notorious for tearing the jacket clean off a bullet, but HSTs fare very well against them and other barriers. I've yet to read a test where an HST fragmented... Weight retention is usually as close to 100% as you can get.

Huh, I would have expected the lighter bullets to expand more. I do find it interesting that the 9's expanded more.

I guess it has to do with bullet contruction.

Cool.

Yep. They typically limit the total expansion on a lighter bullet for a very good reason.

Aerodynamic (or meat-o-dynamic in this case) drag increases exponentially (it's cubed) as you increase surface area or velocity. Obviously, velocity isn't going to be the issue here, but surface area vs weight. The heavier the bullet, the more surface area you can get away with and still get enough penetration. If the lighter bullet expanded to the same size as the heavier bullet, you would likely wind up with a round that will under-penetrate. Not good.

I've got HSTs in .45. I need to find more - I'm down under a hundred! They're very accurate and reliable in my Sig, and I haven't seen a ballistic test that they didn't clean house in. However they bonded the core to the jacket really works - not even windshields break them apart very often! Meanwhile, the fabled Ranger T typically experiences jacket separation in wet newspaper - this isn't a really good thing. I'd like a bullet to expand and still hold together if it hits a bone.

In my opinion (as much as it matters ) the faster a bullet expands, and the larger it expands, the more energy is going to be transfered to the target. Penetration is also a factor, but the HST has proven that it can 'go the distance' so to speak. Most of the testing that they have done shows that the 180 gr penetrates anywhere from 11.5-14". Thats plenty enough for me.

I had Hydra-Shoks loaded in my G21SF at first, but after testing them through denim, I started looking for another round. Expansion was iffy, and most of the time, the only way that I had them expand when encountering barriers was if it was shot at point blank range (<5 feet). At >10 feet, the expansion was hit and miss. Two would expand, then three wouldnt, then vice-versa. They were the Godfather in their day, but I will stick to the newer designs, and when another one comes out that will supercede this design, I'll probably still be using HSTs...LOL I honestly dont think that they can improve on the HST design. Not unless they make a bullet that can cook me dinner, I will stick with them...

Brad

Energy transfer isn't a wounding mechanism. You're trying to tear a hole through someone, period. That's the entire list of wounding factors for a handgun. If you could find a pistol to launch a round over 2000 feet per second, you'd get another one: stretch cavity, which is bruising around the permanent cavity (the hole you're tearing through someone).

It's not terribly scientific, but... IMO the exit wound is an overlooked advantage to having rounds that penetrate properly. Penetration is important because there are so many good things at the back of a body. For example, I'm hearing that the shooter from Fort Hood is was paralyzed by one of the bullets that stopped him. IMO that is probably exactly what stopped him. Now, if you're squared-off against someone with a gun, you have to remember that their arms will probably be up to aim, too (go get into your shooting stance in front of a mirror, and look at your target areas. Notice something?) so you may have to shoot through forearm to reach the body at all. Then you have to penetrate the chest cavity, possibly smashing through a rib or the breast bone. But bleeding takes forever to stop someone. What doesn't is clipping their spinal cord or taking out their brain. But when you think about it, one of the reasons the chest is such a prime target is not just the heart, lungs, veins and arteries, it's the fact that after smashing through some of that stuff, you get a second chance to stop the target without firing a second shot - the spinal cord!

That and faster blood loss (because two holes leak faster than one - crude, yeah, but hard to argue against ) are two of the reasons I'd prefer my bullet exit a bad guy's body. Just barely is good, but I do want 100% penetration. If possible, I'd like a ricochet back into the BG for 100+% penetration.