Gauging effectiveness of .45 cartridge

[Stag]

If you haven't seen how they tested prior to adopting the 1911 service pistol back when, this is worth the read (chapter III): http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm[url]http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm[/URL]
Of course, it's long before they had ballistic gelatin to see what a bullet will actually do when fired at someone.

That was a good read.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

What Sage means is you should always practice making headshots. The Mozambique drill is just a drill involving that (2 to the chest, 1 to the head). A proper shot to the CNS (central nervous system/upper spine/center section of brain) is the only type of shot that will almost instantaneously stop someone 99% of the time. When in doubt, if the attacker is not stopping, the headshot is always on the table. There are documented LE accounts of attackers taking fatal shots, shots to the heart, lungs, etc and that continue to fight long enough to do some damage (research the 1986 Miami FBI shootout).

One thing I'd like to point out is, IMO, it's a good idea to mix up training drills like failure to stop drills (Mozambique for example). If you constantly train the same way, using the same drill every time, there is the possibility you may respond to an attack in that manner by default even though the situation may not warrant it. Mix up the training a bit, mix up the number of rounds used so that you don't become too used to a static drill. This should help keep you on your toes a bit as well.

 

[JKTex]

Just because he is still standing after the first "volley" does not mean the ammo was innefective. I know of several shootings where the target was standing against a wall and did not fall immediately even though there were several "fatal" shots fired.

Dead does not necessarily mean down
Incapacitated does not necessarily mean dead/down

The human body can take incredible punishment or it can shut down from minimal damage.

Exactly. And they say he had wounds pretty much all over his body. How many were after the fatal shot? Especailly if they fired that many rounds on that short of a time frame.

It's a really bad "test" of ammo ballistics. I'm 100% confident in what I carry.

 

[mace]

The main point IMHO is that no handgun is a death ray. A bad guy can take lethal hits and potentially still keep doing bad things for a few seconds or minutes. We aren't really interested in whether a shot is lethal or not - a 22 to the stomach is plenty lethal. What we're interested in is what will make the bad guy stop doing bad things quickly enough to keep us safe, and no one shot from any caliber can be counted on for that.

Don't believe that just because you have a 45, bad guys will drop the instant that they're hit. Plan to keep shooting and moving out of the bad guy's line of fire until you see that he's no longer a threat.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

I'm sorry, What was that distance?

Death should be the farthest thing from your mind. "Stopping the threat" is number one as stated above (Would be a smart phrase to use during the Grand Jury too).

I remember a time when I'd use #8 to the face in CQ from an Ithaca model 37 and it stopped them everytime.

To this day, a capsulated shotshell is my first round with face intent.

 

[Libertarian_Longhorn]

I'm sorry, What was that distance?

Death should be the farthest thing from your mind. "Stopping the threat" is number one as stated above (Would be a smart phrase to use during the Grand Jury too).

I remember a time when I'd use #8 to the face in CQ from an Ithaca model 37 and it stopped them everytime.

To this day, a capsulated shotshell is my first round with face intent.

I assume you're using a revolver then, the shotshells won't cycle in my semi autos even with a worn spring. That's a good idea though to incapacitate with shot to the face, have you practiced with the limited spread? Even so, if I deem it neccessary to pull the trigger, it's going to be a center of mass double tap. If it warrants me pulling the trigger, the BG is going down hard and fast

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Most of the time I tote a Ruger 101 357 because its a good Ranch & Road choice (for me) like my Justin boots. My first up round is loaded with shot for snakes and the spread is perfect for coating a human head to ten feet.

I understand the center mass concept, but I'm fine with my choice.

Hopefully (I pray) most folks will never have to deploy a weapon in defense.

 

[M. Sage]

What Sage means is you should always practice making headshots. The Mozambique drill is just a drill involving that (2 to the chest, 1 to the head). A proper shot to the CNS (central nervous system/upper spine/center section of brain) is the only type of shot that will almost instantaneously stop someone 99% of the time. When in doubt, if the attacker is not stopping, the headshot is always on the table. There are documented LE accounts of attackers taking fatal shots, shots to the heart, lungs, etc and that continue to fight long enough to do some damage (research the 1986 Miami FBI shootout).

Even a head shot isn't a guarantee. There are instances of people retaining the ability to fight even after being hit in the head. Sometimes the angle is right and the shot is off far enough that a bullet can deflect along the outside of the skull.

As far as .45, I've read one account from a former LAPD officer who got in a gunfight and put 4 rounds of .45 Colt into someone before switching to an intentional head shot because the BG was still coming at him. And his first shot was a miss, so the head shot was with the last round in the cylinder.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

I really wish they would further subdivide the statistics into LE encounters -vs- average citizen.

The Fight or Flight response is totally different.

 

[Texas1911]

I remember a time when I'd use #8 to the face in CQ from an Ithaca model 37 and it stopped them everytime.

One upside to shot is that you can easily hit the eyes. Even with dangerous game you can blind the animal or attacker with the first shot, you gain a strategic advantage; moreso with humans obviously.

The downside is if you don't have the luxury of multiple shots the shot is not going to have the ability to cause terminal damage.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Everyone has their comfort zone and choice of weapons.

 

[jfrey]

A G36 leaves the house with me everyday and comes home with me every evening. I have never felt under gunned by carrying it. There is no magic bullet or caliber, but I think the .45 ups the odds if you get a hit just about anywhere. 100 years of tried and true don't lie.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Even a head shot isn't a guarantee. There are instances of people retaining the ability to fight even after being hit in the head. Sometimes the angle is right and the shot is off far enough that a bullet can deflect along the outside of the skull.

As far as .45, I've read one account from a former LAPD officer who got in a gunfight and put 4 rounds of .45 Colt into someone before switching to an intentional head shot because the BG was still coming at him. And his first shot was a miss, so the head shot was with the last round in the cylinder.

That's why I said "proper" shot to the CNS.

I don't remember who coined the phrase, however I like this philosophy: "Shoot 'em to the ground" That says it all.

 

[M. Sage]

That's why I said "proper" shot to the CNS.

I don't remember who coined the phrase, however I like this philosophy: "Shoot 'em to the ground" That says it all.

This is true, and I'm 100% a believer in that philosophy. Shoot until there is no more threat.