Going to be selling some firearms -- guidance please

[Utah]

Yet another that would have been interested if not for the meaningless requirements. I have a CHL and am also an instructor but cannot support requiring those for a sale. There are plenty of responsible owners without a CHL. A BOS is an even more useless requirement as it will do nothing for you legally. Are you going to have a legally drafted document (ahem 4473 and FFL book) or a notary present? If not then it really wont make an ounce of difference. I could write up a BOS for all my guns now and scribble someone else's name...

Losing out on a lot of big buyers with that nonsense.

Sent from Kate Beckinsale's closet.

What a BOS does for me legally is to have a (minor) proof that a gun left my possession. Since I am not forcing detail about the recipient, it does not necessarily give any detail about where the gun went. The format is along the lines of "On ___________, the firearm with S/N ____ was sold for _________" with my signature and the buyer's signature. I don't verify the buyer's signature against any documents, since my own comfort level in assuring me the buyer is legally authorized to buy the firearm are met by DL and CHL. Since pretty much every firearm I own came straight from an FFL (nearly all were new at purchase), I'm the first one in the chain that law enforcement would visit if a firearm is being tracked.

Yes, I could forge a bill of sale, but that is not in my makeup to do. The laws may cause unnecessary burdens, or useless procedures, but my own personal approach is to try to uphold the law and do the right thing. With regard to selling a firearm, this approach is what meets my comfort level. I'm fine with other folks doing in whatever way you like, within the law.

 

[itchin]

Lol. I don't worry about guns I sell in private deals. If I feel you're shady or not a resident I walk. Criminals will always find guns or drugs.

 

[txinvestigator]

Seeing the CHL and Driver License are my way of doing my best to uphold the law and have a high degree of confidence I'm not selling to a prohibited person. As for the bill of sale, as I mentioned I don't put names and I don't care how readable your signature is. The purpose of the paper is the proof that the gun departed my possession on a particular date. I understand there will be those who won't want to do business with me if they cannot remain fully anonymous during the transaction, and that is fine.

I'm an instructor for the Utah Concealed Firearm Permit (CFP), so perhaps that has influenced my opinion of selling only to those who have shown some get-up-and-go in their attitude and commitment to being responsible firearm owners.

So, no "you have to have been on the forum so long" or "you have to have made so many posts" before listing a firearm for sale, correct?

A piece of paper with no names and no signatures does not prove anything. Even one including those things is meaningless, especially to a criminal investigation.

I would have to pass on your sales.

 

[Utah]

With that logic you could not sell a car for fear someone, some where down the line, may use it in a bank robbery.

While I would not like a firearm I sold to be used criminally, if I did due diligence during the sale I am not responsible for its future use.

There are additional required-by-law mechanisms in place that require scrutiny for a legally driven car. Besides, I know of no disqualifying legal hurdles to clear in a vehicle sale. I could sell a car to a 12 year old, even though he or she can't drive the car on the streets. They can own a car.
A Texas DL says the person is a resident of the state, and I can see if they are 18 or older. That clears you of the provable part of the law you must meet in a sale. For me, the CHL is a sufficient proof of not being disallowed. The holder has been cleared by background checks done by the state, with fingerprints verified against FBI records (if y'all do the background check like Utah). So, with a simple flash of a card, I have a high level of confidence I wouldn't be willing or able to gain by other means.

 

[Utah]

A piece of paper with no names and no signatures does not prove anything. Even one including those things is meaningless, especially to a criminal investigation.

I would have to pass on your sales.

My signature would be provable. It at least proves that I assert I sold a particular gun on a particular date. How meaningful that would be is determined by the investigator, or judge, or jury.

 

[Utah]

Lol. I don't worry about guns I sell in private deals. If I feel you're shady or not a resident I walk. Criminals will always find guns or drugs.

Yeah, criminals find a way. I just don't want to help.

 

[Skip]

I think alot if valid points why BOS's are useless have already been given here, your own writing even says why they are useless.

"Character is doing the right thing even when no one is watching"

 

[Glockster69]

Your guns, your sale, your way. Good luck :-)

 

[Utah]

With all due respect, stating that you're a CHL instructor has no bearing on your sale of a firearm. And that piece of paper is NO kind of "proof" that it left your possession. It has ZERO legal standing. What it does do with folks like myself is mark you as someone that doesn't know firearms law, and as such puts you in an "avoid" column. I'm just one guy, though - albeit one that buys firearms routinely.

Actually, a bill of sale does have legal standing. Contract law is deeply embedded in the US law system, as well is private ownership of property. As for what standing it has in a particular instance, that is determined by those presenting and interpreting the law for that particular instance. Said another way, the law is what your lawyer convinces the judge the law means.

I realize there are lot's of good, law-abiding gun owners who won't buy from me if they have to show me a CHL and provide a signature of any sort. That's fine.

As for "doesn't know firearms law", we can debate that in other threads.

 

[Utah]

There have been debates on this BOS BS before and it's really a waste of time to start a new one. You certainly have the right to utilize whatever prejudice you like in selling your stuff - BOS, CHL, birth certificate, blood type, ...., whatever. You've been given the very fair advice that it will reduce the number of potential buyers, and that may affect the amount you receive for the firearms.

Others have already pointed out that all of that is meaningless. The buyer might resell or give away the firearm 5 minutes after taking possession. Quite honestly, your prejudice about possessing a CHL makes you sound like those anti-gun Yankees that think that possessing a firearm should require a special permit. That may not be what you intended, but it is still what comes across. I suspect that even some CHL holders, like me, might be pretty reluctant to get involved - further reducing your pool of buyers.

Good luck with your sale.

Thanks!

 

[txinvestigator]

What a BOS does for me legally is to have a (minor) proof that a gun left my possession. Since I am not forcing detail about the recipient, it does not necessarily give any detail about where the gun went. The format is along the lines of "On ___________, the firearm with S/N ____ was sold for _________" with my signature and the buyer's signature. I don't verify the buyer's signature against any documents, since my own comfort level in assuring me the buyer is legally authorized to buy the firearm are met by DL and CHL. Since pretty much every firearm I own came straight from an FFL (nearly all were new at purchase), I'm the first one in the chain that law enforcement would visit if a firearm is being tracked.

Yes, I could forge a bill of sale, but that is not in my makeup to do. The laws may cause unnecessary burdens, or useless procedures, but my own personal approach is to try to uphold the law and do the right thing. With regard to selling a firearm, this approach is what meets my comfort level. I'm fine with other folks doing in whatever way you like, within the law.

You keep writing that a BOS is proof. It is proof of nothing. As a former LEO amd current TCLEOSE instructor I can tell you that it holds zero evidentiary value.

Unless a gun you purchsed from s dealer is used in a crime, recovered AND there is evidence you were involved in that specific crime, then the police will simply ask you if you can tell them to whom you sold the gun. Your BOS with no info will not help the police, nor prove you didn't use the gun in the crime and try to cover it up. The cops will just thank you for your time and move on.

However, if you mother in law was murdered by a gun you bought, no amount of scribbly Bills of sale will help you.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Actually, a BOS has NO legal standing unless it meets certain minimum criteria, which yours don't.

But - as I said from the beginning, it's your choice. You came in asking for guidance, and reject it because it doesn't fit YOUR preconceived notion. Why, then, bother to ask? I'm done with this thread.

 

[txinvestigator]

Actually, a bill of sale does have legal standing. C

One notarized properly might. Or one with detail, including identifying information. However, it serves no purpose.

 

[Utah]

These 3 threads spell it out nicely. Basically, you meet the post requirement of 25, not "must be a member for a certain period of time" requirement. Some other info in the 3 threads

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/guns-sale/7147-rules-read-before-you-post-ad.html

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/...your-thread-title-your-post-will-deleted.html

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/guns-sale/52519-mark-your-thread-sold-wtt-wtb-wts.html

Thanks, GlockOwner, this is what I was looking to learn. Now all I have to do is drive a rental truck of stuff from Utah to Texas after Thanksgiving -- it's a looong drive.

 

[txinvestigator]

My signature would be provable. It at least proves that I assert I sold a particular gun on a particular date. How meaningful that would be is determined by the investigator, or judge, or jury.

Your previous signature would mean no more than a sworn affidavit after the fact. Like when the cops asks.

 

[Utah]

You keep writing that a BOS is proof. It is proof of nothing. As a former LEO amd current TCLEOSE instructor I can tell you that it holds zero evidentiary value.

Unless a gun you purchsed from s dealer is used in a crime, recovered AND there is evidence you were involved in that specific crime, then the police will simply ask you if you can tell them to whom you sold the gun. Your BOS with no info will not help the police, nor prove you didn't use the gun in the crime and try to cover it up. The cops will just thank you for your time and move on.

However, if you mother in law was murdered by a gun you bought, no amount of scribbly Bills of sale will help you.

I can be convinced -- I had used the lightweight BOS because I was advised by a person familiar with law given his profession that it gave me some ability to prove not lost or stolen, and indicate date of departure from my possession. If under Texas law the BOS does none of these, then I wouldn't require it in a sale. I still would want to see a CHL (or permit from any other state), but that is for my own comfort that the person is not disallowed.

 

[Charlie]

Welcome to the forum, Utah! Good luck with selling your guns. I will have to chime in with the rest of the group in saying you will probably lose some great opportunities for sales and meeting the good folks from this forum by requiring the things you've mentioned. And, as said earlier, signed documents by individuals without a notary do not offer "proof".

 

[Utah]

Your previous signature would mean no more than a sworn affidavit after the fact. Like when the cops asks.

That is a very good point. I could, for example, mail myself a letter saying I sold a gun on a particular date. The letter with date stamp is something of a proof of when. I have a packet of information about training I've taken and principles I've learned that I mailed to myself, so if ever needed could be introduced by my lawyer into court to show my prior state of mind.

Ya know... I just realized I signed up for the Texas Law Shield for a year. I'll give those folks a call and see if they think a BOS does anybody any good. I'll report back to this thread with what I find out.

 

[Utah]

Welcome to the forum, Utah! Good luck with selling your guns. I will have to chime in with the rest of the group in saying you will probably lose some great opportunities for sales and meeting the good folks from this forum by requiring the things you've mentioned. And, as said earlier, signed documents by individuals without a notary do not offer "proof".

Agreed. Having also been a notary, and not feeling comfortable with requiring that level of detail in gun sale, the BOS as I'm executing it has not much value (and as others have pointed out, maybe no value at all).

 

[Sugar Land]

There are some pretty smart cookies on this forum but if you want to know for sure get a lawyer.