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    Group pushes Texas lawmakers for open-carry gun law | News for Austin, Texas | KVUE.com | Top Stories


    [SIZE=+2]Group pushes Texas lawmakers for open-carry gun law
    icon_video.gif


    [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]06:25 PM CST on Monday, December 1, 2008

    [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]By JESSICA VESS
    KVUE News
    [/SIZE]

    You may be used to guns on the range, but are you ready for guns on the hip? According to online at opencarry.org , nearly 33,000 Texans have said "yes."


    "It's called a Constitutional right -- not a privilege,” said Ian McCarthy, founder of the Texas open carry petition.


    Each computerized signature on the petition is a sign of support for an open carry handgun policy in the state in which gun owners would be allowed to carry their weapons in plain sight. The petition is non-binding, and right now it has no sponsor in the Legislature.


    "We shouldn't have to ask the state for permission to exercise that right," said McCarthy.


    "I whole-heartedly support it; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that," said Lawrence Taylor, supporter of an open carry handgun law.
    Despite public support, any change in gun laws will be up to the Texas Legislature. State lawmakers are not in session right now; however, representatives with opencarry.org say they have spoken with some who say they will push the green button -- voting yes.


    Governor Rick Perry says he supports an open carry policy, but some law enforcement officials don't agree.



    "It's extremely dangerous for the officers, it's dangerous for the citizens," said President of the Austin Police Association Lt. George Vanderhule.


    On Tuesday, opencarry.org will launch a series of radio commercial ads dubbed Operation Lone Star Thunder.


    “We believe that law abiding Texans should be free to exercise their rights,” said the commercial.


    Opencarry.org hopes the message will change the minds of opponents. Advertisements will also hit the road. Austin Cab Company will have about a dozen taxis with posters supporting the policy change.


    Texas is just one of six states that do not have an open carry gun law at all. Most other states have an open-carry law. Some of the states don’t even require gun owners to get a license.


    "I don't like it because I don't like guns at all, I think they're dangerous," said Esther Vanhout, opponent.


    According to the FBI violent crimes across the nation, including states with open carry laws has gone down over the past year, but those who oppose open-carry fear the law increases accidental shootings. Statistics for those shootings are not available.


    For now, a formal open carry bill is not posted to go before the Legislature in its next session, but sources say there is a bill being drafted that should be ready by January.
    ARJ Defense ad
     

    phatcyclist

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    I would love to see this happen. Texas is a hot climate and wardrobes can't always facilitate concealed carry of anything more than a mouse gun or a derringer. I probably wouldn't open carry much, but I think it should be an option. I think that if there is a license required that CHL holders should be automatically allowed to do so.
     

    ducksps

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    typical view

    "I don't like it because I don't like guns at all, I think they're dangerous," said Esther Vanhout, opponent.


    No firearms education is the thing anti-gunners seem to have in common.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    "I don't like it because I don't like guns at all, I think they're dangerous," said Esther Vanhout, opponent.


    No firearms education is the thing anti-gunners seem to have in common.

    It's funny some of the morons that they quote to get a word in from the anti crowd. They'll take quotes from established and respected industry professionals and marginalize them as "nuts", but then they'll take some libtard off the street that has some idiotic input on the subject and they will give them equal time and/or more consideration. True journalism died a very long time ago.
     

    border bandit

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    couple of questions about open carry.

    I am one of the Tx CHL Instructors and I have wondered are they just going to let everybody just walk around with a gun on their hip? How
    would you know if it is law abiding citizen ; a gang banger or Mexican cop. Whats to keep the last 2 I named from doing it? ..
    border bandit
     

    Shorts

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    I am one of the Tx CHL Instructors and I have wondered are they just going to let everybody just walk around with a gun on their hip? How
    would you know if it is law abiding citizen ; a gang banger or Mexican cop. Whats to keep the last 2 I named from doing it? ..
    border bandit


    Well, I don't know what the final draft bill will be but unlicensed OC is the goal. And CC still remains a licensed affair.

    ...let me gather my thoughts here, grab some lunch and I'll get a coherent reply down
     

    RMD1960

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    I do agree that it should be our "right" to open carry. However, I doubt I would ever do it. To me it takes away the "surprise element". When the bad guy enters the facility behind you, and sees a gun on your hip, he may just shoot you in the back to eliminate the risk of a confrontation from you. Police officers in uniform walk around every day with a great big "target" on their back. I would rather blend into the scenery than stand out like a sore thumb. Just my $.02 worth.
     

    Shorts

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    The best way I could provide this reply is by the link itself. If you haven't had a chance, I encourage you to check out opencarry.org. There is much information and lots of threads that can help answer some questions you might have. It takes quite a bit of reading as the threads do get fairly extensive and lots of tangents are had...BUT, there is good information.

    As I mentioned, unlicensed OC is the goal. There is one particular response that was laid out as to why unlicensed OC rather than licensed. It's a post by a member 'TFred' on OCDO this thread: TX open carry bill to be introduced with Gov. Perry's support! - Hot Topics - Open Carry Brigade - OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum, on pg 7:

    Open Carry: Should it be licensed?

    As a resident of Virginia, I've read through this tread with some interest and support, but really no personal stake in the outcome of this campaign. One theme I've seen in a few posts is that some who are proponents of open carry are either not opposed to, or even in favor of licensing the practice, in a similar fashion to concealed carry. And to be complete, some wish to tie that to a "shall issue" directive (pending a satisfactory background check) to prevent the process from becoming arbitrary or subjective. All seemingly reasonable positions.

    As you probably know, Virginia is a "Gold Star" open carry state, which means that in all cases, if you are allowed to legally own and posses a handgun, you may carry it openly (visibly) about your person. Just as with concealed carry, there are a few specific places where open carry is not allowed.

    Living here, reading the news and personal stories of those living here in this open carry environment, please let me share with you why licensing open carry is not a good idea.

    Despite the fact that open carry has always been legal in Virginia (simply because it has never been declared "illegal"), incidents regularly occur where this absolutely legal activity draws the attention and often illegal actions and reactions of law enforcement personnel and paranoid citizens.

    Aside from legalizing the citizens' Constitutional right to bear arms in self defense, another goal of the open carry movement (in general, as I do not speak for opencarry.org) is to remove the anti-gun stigma held by the brainwashed masses, fostered and carefully cultivated by the liberal left of society.

    Don't be fooled here, even once this campaign in Texas is successful, it will not be an easy road! After a little honeymoon-type publicity at the beginning, the "hey look I can wear a gun" stars will fade, and it will take years before the entrenched mind sets and paranoia begin to be replaced by the reluctant realization that we aren't really back in the wild, wild west after all. In real life terms, this means that many of the local and state law enforcement agencies and personnel will be reluctant to embrace this new situation, and will resist it to the best of (and sometimes even beyond) their legal ability. They will look for any excuse to intimidate and even harass citizens who are now legally openly carrying. It happens here in Virginia, where it's always been legal. It happens everywhere that open carry is legal. It will happen in Texas once open carry is legal.

    To come back around to my point here... if a license is required to openly carry a firearm, then every person who is openly carrying a firearm becomes a subject to be stopped, identified, verified, questioned, delayed, intimidated, checked for outstanding warrants, humiliated, and all the other adjectives you can think of when you have been apprehended by a police officer despite having committed no crime.

    Add in a little bit of leftover old-school thinking and you will have this sort of stuff being done disproportionately based on ethnicity. There are several well documented cases in Virginia of exactly that. It's costing unrepentant localities tens of thousands of dollars in lawsuit settlements.

    Here in Virginia, we discuss these events regularly... so much so that we have the script memorized in case it happens to you:
    Hello officer. Yes, it's a gun. No sir, no permit is required (thinking to oneself: you should know that by now). Sure, my name is ... and I live at .... Sir, am I being detained? Do you have a reason to suspect I have committed a crime or that I am about to commit a crime? Ok then, thanks, have a nice day.
    These illegal stops happen far too often. We are making progress, but "Man With A Gun" calls still come in, and despite some progress in training (sometimes they actually try to determine if it's simply a citizen who is openly carrying) all too often law enforcement is dispatched at the bequest of brainwashed anti-gun citizens who describe near carnage just because they saw Joe (or maybe "Jane", as in Lebanon, PA!) and his holstered Glock in the checkout line at the grocery store.

    If you support or even settle for "licensed" open carry in Texas, you will never get beyond the anti-gun mind set that says people who carry guns are criminals and must be treated as such. It flies in the very face of the Second Amendment and douses all the good efforts of what the open carry movement is all about.

    For your consideration,

    TFred


    I am one of the Tx CHL Instructors and I have wondered are they just going to let everybody just walk around with a gun on their hip? How
    would you know if it is law abiding citizen ; a gang banger or Mexican cop. Whats to keep the last 2 I named from doing it? ..
    border bandit

    To the first question, not everyone will be allowed to carry. The people who are still ineligible to possess a firearm are still ineligible from carrying a firearm, period.

    As it stands now, we know that CHL holders (in kfriddile's post and TX law): have no felony convictions, no class A or B misdemeanors in the past five years, have passed both state and federal background checks, and are not chemically dependent or mentally incapable.

    We know less about Average Joe who is not a CHL holder in Texas! Yet we don't worry about the weapons or intentions they possess. Why? There is no need to be concerned until they break a law. Once they have broken a law, its game over, take them in on the infraction and run them through the system.

    What's to keep the gangbanger or mexican cop from OCing? Well, if either of these two are ineligible from posessing a firearm, they should have no firearm in the first place, right? It is already illegal for them to even possess a firearm if they are felons. Adding yet another law they will be in violation of does little to deter them from carrying regardless the method.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    I am one of the Tx CHL Instructors and I have wondered are they just going to let everybody just walk around with a gun on their hip? How
    would you know if it is law abiding citizen ; a gang banger or Mexican cop. Whats to keep the last 2 I named from doing it? ..
    border bandit


    The problem is our legislators keep catering the laws to the lowest common denominator of society. In any other area or group, such as the military or a sports team for example, catering to the LCD usually results in sub par players or soldiers. The whole point with the OC movement is to get back to the "choice" part of carrying and let the law-abiding decide how they want to carry. Criminals and idiots will continue to commit acts of crime and idiocy regardless of the law. That's precisely why we call them criminals and idiots. ;) The fears many had about concealed carry in this state as well as others have been proven to be largely unfounded. For example, in Texas, people with CHL's have accounted for less than 0.50% (that's right less than HALF of one percent!) of annual crimes in Texas, and a majority of those "crimes" were for non-violent and non-firearms related offenses (driving drunk, public intoxication, etc). The supposed blood baths in the streets never occurred as many wrung their hands about when CHL's were implemented in Texas. The same can be said for open carry. As with concealed carry and pretty much any subject for that matter, there are always exceptions to the rule and people that will still commit acts of idiocy. There is simply no way around this and no amount of legislation will ever change that entirely, so it's pointless to restrict the rights of the law-abiding to enact an exercise in futility.
     

    border bandit

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    What about?What's to keep the gangbanger or mexican cop from OCing? Well, if either o

    You Posted
    (What's to keep the gangbanger or mexican cop from OCing? Well, if either of these two are ineligible from posessing a firearm, they should have no firearm in the first place, right? It is already illegal for them to even possess a firearm if they are felons. Adding yet another law they will be in violation of does little to deter them from carrying regardless the method.)
    __________________
    The deal is as I see it that these things that are inelgible to even own are criminals and their main job as criminals are to not obey the law. How would a citizien or Law Dog no some one was a criminal, a mental defective, or any other type human debris just by looking at them .. just by looking at them.
    "these two are ineligible from posessing a firearm, they should have no firearm in the first place, right? It is already illegal for them to even possess a firearm if they are felons. "

    I am undecided but have a lot of thougts that are negative about OPEN CARRY. ...border bandit
     

    Shorts

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    I am undecided but have a lot of thougts that are negative about OPEN CARRY. ...border bandit


    Ok, what other concerns do you have? I don't dare imply that I'm going to speak and change your mind, rather, I'd like to offer some points to ponder if you're curious.


    You Posted
    (What's to keep the gangbanger or mexican cop from OCing? Well, if either of these two are ineligible from posessing a firearm, they should have no firearm in the first place, right? It is already illegal for them to even possess a firearm if they are felons. Adding yet another law they will be in violation of does little to deter them from carrying regardless the method.)
    __________________
    The deal is as I see it that these things that are inelgible to even own are criminals and their main job as criminals are to not obey the law. How would a citizien or Law Dog no some one was a criminal, a mental defective, or any other type human debris just by looking at them .. just by looking at them.
    "these two are ineligible from posessing a firearm, they should have no firearm in the first place, right? It is already illegal for them to even possess a firearm if they are felons. "
    I don't understand this part here. It's a bit jumbled with my reply so I'm a bit unsure of your stance.

    Can I ask you, are you able to tell if a person in general now is a criminal?
     

    Texan2

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    Shorts,
    I read your post from the guy in VA and he makes some good points, and I am for the least amount of licensing neccessary, but at the close you mentioned that those who are not able to own a firearm now, wont be able to carry. The writer bashed LE for making contact with people in VA who carry openly. So I ask you this...
    As an LEO, how do I know if the guy I am looking at has the legal right to carry? If he is in a gang/drug saturated area, or if he is casing a 7-11 or any number of other things, how do we "prevent" the crime that the public screams for us to prevent? If I cant go up to a guy and ask him what he is doing in a certain place at a certain time, how do we protect the public?
    Guys, I am as fervent a 2A supporter as anyone, but sometimes we go off the deep end.
    There has to be some type of controls to have order in a society. We have some among us that think ANY type of rules to live by are oppresive and they want a revolution...lol
    As far as open carry goes, I couldnt care any less one way or the other...I would never do it out of uniform and cant think of one reason why anyone would want to. It makes you a target....it draws attention to you....it allows your potential attacker to know HOW not to come after you. Its like playing cards and showing what you have on every hand. It just makes bad sense. That having been said , if someone wants to do it, they should be able to, but you have to make up your mind. You cant cry that felons (or other disqualified persons) are carrying openly and why wont LE do anything? And at the same time cry that you are being "harrassed" because you were asked for ID.
     

    Shorts

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    Shorts,
    I read your post from the guy in VA and he makes some good points, and I am for the least amount of licensing neccessary, but at the close you mentioned that those who are not able to own a firearm now, wont be able to carry. The writer bashed LE for making contact with people in VA who carry openly. So I ask you this...

    The writer did have some opinions of the LE in VA. There have been some questionable run-ins in VA these last few months that influenced that.



    As an LEO, how do I know if the guy I am looking at has the legal right to carry? If he is in a gang/drug saturated area, or if he is casing a 7-11 or any number of other things, how do we "prevent" the crime that the public screams for us to prevent? If I cant go up to a guy and ask him what he is doing in a certain place at a certain time, how do we protect the public?
    Guys, I am as fervent a 2A supporter as anyone, but sometimes we go off the deep end.


    I can't answer that as an LEO. I have no formal LE training, I don't know your protocols or procedures. For preventing crime, I can't speak for the rest of the general public. It's my understanding that LE is there to enforce the laws and not necessarily to prevent crime. Which it is why I've taken personal responsibility for my safety and have chosen to carry a firearm. LE isn't omnipotent, they can't be everywhere ever single minute of the day. It's humanly impossible. I understand I have to be able to take care of myself. I can't depend on anyone else to be there all the time and I don't.


    There has to be some type of controls to have order in a society. We have some among us that think ANY type of rules to live by are oppresive and they want a revolution...lol

    True. And some to the other extreme that cannot function properly without the institutionalization. Our current station, oddly enough, has been an illustration of "rules for the lowest common denominator".



    As far as open carry goes, I couldnt care any less one way or the other...I would never do it out of uniform and cant think of one reason why anyone would want to. It makes you a target....it draws attention to you....it allows your potential attacker to know HOW not to come after you. Its like playing cards and showing what you have on every hand. It just makes bad sense. That having been said , if someone wants to do it, they should be able to, but you have to make up your mind. You cant cry that felons (or other disqualified persons) are carrying openly and why wont LE do anything? And at the same time cry that you are being "harrassed" because you were asked for ID.


    I still don't know if I would either. That's the crazy part. For practicality, I have considered it. It would be easier to dress. It would be easier to carry. It'd be easier to draw since I can't execute a garment sweep with my offhand. It doesn't put me in violation if I remove my coat/cover garment with a shoulder or OWB rig. Now actually going about day to day encounters and public scrutiny, that brings a unique challenge. As I said, I don't know, but I'm keeping an open mind about it all.

    I don't know about it drawing attention. Adults in general are not very observant; kids are though. Years back I broke my neck in an auto accident. I lost the use of my left arm. Do you know that I was on a date with my then husband for 2hrs before he realized that I had no use of my arm? But as the guinea pig these last 10 years I know that adults don't notice details of what's around them but kids will catch the smallest thing in 2 seconds flat. I don't think I need to tell you how the general public is not very observant. I'm sure you've taken witness statements that have made you scratch your head. As for any would-be criminal who's actually targeting me, that will take a bit of homework on his/her part. In order to overcome my defense, s/he needs to be certain of my abilities, my schedule, my situational awareness, just to list a few. On top of that, whatever he's trying to get from me must be worth the trouble. Not saying it might not be, just saying, at that time in my life and his/hers, it has to be because his/her cost will be pretty high if s/he guesses wrong.


    Anyway, I've never cried that felons have guns and LE doesn't do anything. I have my own and if anyone wants to have a go, well, I'll be ready heaven forbid of my time comes. I do think you're asking me these specific questions based on the scrutiny of the public in general and from pressures that you have felt. So, I don't blame you for that. I can't answer all your questions because I don't think many can.
     

    Texan2

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    "I can't answer that as an LEO. I have no formal LE training, I don't know your protocols or procedures. For preventing crime, I can't speak for the rest of the general public. It's my understanding that LE is there to enforce the laws and not necessarily to prevent crime."


    I was asking alot of rhetorical questions, but without a doubt one of LE's main directives is to prevent and supress crime to the extent that they are able.

    TEXAS CCP Art. 2.13. DUTIES AND POWERS. (a) It is the duty of every
    peace officer to preserve the peace within the officer's
    jurisdiction. To effect this purpose, the officer shall use all
    lawful means.
    (b) The officer shall:
    (1) in every case authorized by the provisions of this Code,
    interfere without warrant to prevent or suppress crime;

    That is one of the reasons why they drive marked police cars, to deter crime. That is why businesses hire officers to stand in their store or bank or restaurant, to deter crime. It is not our job to prevent ALL crime, as that is not possible. If this were not the case their would be no patrol....just call when it happens and we will pull someone from a desk to take a report. I know to some it seems that way now, but patrol catches alot of things as they happen too.
    As for the second point you didnt really address it, just said you took responsibility for yourself. Which is good....but not everyone can do that.
    Example: When some thugs are hangin out at the bus stop where the elderly get on and off and they have a gun strapped to their side for all to see and they are checking out everyone that is getting on and off the bus....should police check them out? I mean, they havent broken a law...yet. What about when a pedephile is hanging near a school...should we check him out?
    Another point to consider is the source of these reports. Media outlets are notoriously anti-LE. They make every encounter look like someones rights are being violated.
    From the LE perspective this is what I see...
    if someone is exercising their right to open carry and I have to approach them for some type of incident, it will probably be with my own gun in hand...the tension level will be higher. One of our biggest complaints now is that "the officer hand his hand on his gun"....to which I answer, SO WHAT???
    I am not anti-open carry.....but it is not as grand and glorious as many would make it out to be.
     

    DirtyD

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    The only reason I can see for support of open cary is that as a CHL, if you happen to inadvertantly expose your sidearm (IE reaching for something on a top shelf), you have no fear of reprecussions
     

    Shorts

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    As for the second point you didnt really address it, just said you took responsibility for yourself. Which is good....but not everyone can do that.
    Example: When some thugs are hangin out at the bus stop where the elderly get on and off and they have a gun strapped to their side for all to see and they are checking out everyone that is getting on and off the bus....should police check them out? I mean, they havent broken a law...yet. What about when a pedephile is hanging near a school...should we check him out?
    Ah yes, the Terry Stop. It is legal.


    Terry v. Ohio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968): Law enforcement officers may stop and frisk someone for weapons if they have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has taken or is about to take place and the subject is armed and dangerous without violating the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures. Supreme Court of Ohio affirmed.


    That's my answer to the thugs sat bus stops or pedophiles at schools.


    For the non-thuggish type:
    Again, Terry Stop. The key, it seems to me, is that both parties are polite. It's easy for either party to be wary or suspicious of the interaction in general. Gun owners feel scrutinized and demonized by the gun-fearing public in general, coupled with knowledge of horror stories of gun carriers and law enforcement. If they're new carrier they may be nervous and self-conscious. On the other side, LE are rightfully concerned for their safety since they deal with unsavory characters on a daily basis and have no idea who is going to try to hurt them or react improper. A terry stop I'd imagine would be a palm-sweating thing for both.


    With this politeness there has to be RESPECTFUL, cut and dry communication.

    I think the basic information would be this:

    "My name is ____. <hand ID and CCW>. Am I being detained? May I be on my way? Thank you"


    The above is sufficient for a Terry Stop. Anything more in a casual conversation can be used against me: YouTube - Dont Talk to Police


    Moving to being disarmed, if I'm not being detained, I'll politely and respectfully request for both our safety, that my firearm stays holstered where it is (and my hands will stay out in front where they can plainly be seen in a non threatening manner). Obviously I won't refuse being disarmed but there would be a follow up at a later date if my firearm is not returned and I am detained.

    Another point to consider is the source of these reports. Media outlets are notoriously anti-LE. They make every encounter look like someones rights are being violated.
    From the LE perspective this is what I see...
    if someone is exercising their right to open carry and I have to approach them for some type of incident, it will probably be with my own gun in hand...the tension level will be higher. One of our biggest complaints now is that "the officer hand his hand on his gun"....to which I answer, SO WHAT???
    Point considered, I agree, some outlets are generally anti-LE. In the cases I have in mind, it is not media outlets who reported. Let me do some digging and I'll get the links posted.

    I think you're misunderstanding "incident" in this case. I am not saying that LE was called because of a threatening action by an OCer. Again, I'll get the links for you.

    Re hand on his gun: I see no issue there. But it scares the bugs out of people when you do. Aside from confusion, the person, if in public is openly embarrassed when targeted. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I'm simply saying, that's what happens. :) With the public as judgmental as they are, it can create some negative effects for the person following that encounter.


    Here is what I'm referring to: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=17007&forum_id=54&highlight=Dan+arrested The thread is long and there are links all over, but it was interesting to watch.


    My perspective, I'm watching all of this from the outside. If I was in the shoes and feeling the hassle that these folks may be feeling, yeah, I'd want there to be some positive changes. Save the LE time on these calls. Save myself time. And just be able to coexist without needing to constantly prove innocence. We all have better things to do I think.
     

    JKTex

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    Something to ponder, people who otherwise are prohibited form buying or possessing a handgun will carry it concealed if they carry it today.

    How many of those same people do you think will open carry if unlicensed open carry became a reality?

    I'm just guessing, but most won't try to draw any more attention to themselves; they'll continue to illegally possess and illegally carry concealed.
     

    DoubleActionCHL

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    Spring, Texas
    The only reason I can see for support of open cary is that as a CHL, if you happen to inadvertantly expose your sidearm (IE reaching for something on a top shelf), you have no fear of reprecussions

    Inadvertently exposing your firearm isn't really a problem, as the statute says you must intentionally fail to conceal your handgun.

    I have mixed feelings about Open Carry in Texas. As a purist, I believe it is our right as guaranteed by 2A, with the obvious exceptions of convicted felons and those mentally incapable.

    As a pragmatist, I feel that Open Carry should be licensed only from the standpoint that we force citizens to sit through applicable training. Training requirements for OC should be more intensive than CHL in that it should include a section on weapon retention. Moreover, OC regulations should include a requirement of some form of retention holster with more than simply a friction fit. I'm a bit indifferent on the background check, as it's required by the CHL statute; I'm used to it.

    While I believe this is a right, our lawmakers see it as a priviledge. The quickest way to lose a privilege is to handle it irresponsibly. We can't legislate good sense, but we can see that people at least sit through the training. What they do with it is up to them.
     
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