Great Article about Caliber Selection

[Hobie Dog]

I don't want ya'll to jump ship over to the Ruger forum but there is a great article over there. This is a constant question that I have had like most. It sounds like the guy that wrote it knows his stuff. The guy that posted it just copied it from somewhere but it's getting some interesting feedback. I'd love to hear the feedback back on this forum.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=21102

 

[zembonez]

Interesting reading.

I don't think crossing the forum borders will do anything but boost participation in the overall "BIG" picture here.

 

[Hobie Dog]

I don't think crossing the forum borders will do anything but boost participation in the overall "BIG" picture here.

There are some great guys over there. Some a little touchy or wound too tight.

 

[The Kicker Guy]

I completely agree with the article. I've found too many people who say .22 is just a BB gun and nobody willing to take a shot from one. Guns are deadly, no matter what caliber. My wife prefers to carry a .22, which several people gave me flak over, but even 10 rds of .22 would not make for a nice day.

 

[chevydeerhunter]

I completely agree with the article. I've found too many people who say .22 is just a BB gun and nobody willing to take a shot from one. Guns are deadly, no matter what caliber. My wife prefers to carry a .22, which several people gave me flak over, but even 10 rds of .22 would not make for a nice day.

+1000
As kids, we would roam the prarie with .22's looking for jack rabbits. My cousin shot at one and the round hit a rock. It ricocheted and hit my belt buckle. Talk about lucky!

 

[SIG_Fiend]

That wasn't a bad article and I feel he made some pretty good points, though IMO he made it seem a bit too much as if ballistics and caliber differences do not matter at all. I'm of the frame of mind that I feel shot placement is ultimately the number one thing to be concerned with in a self defense situation. However there are a great many factors involved in stopping/incapacitating an attacker. Here is an excellent read I highly recommend for anyone interested in the subject:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

It is a ballistic study done by the FBI in '89. Bullet technology has improved substantially since that time. Basically the jist of the article is this, there are a handful of factors that determine incapacitation from a gunshot. These are:

-Penetration
-Permanent Cavity
-Temporary Cavity (temporary stretching basically)
-Fragmentation
-Emotional Trauma/shock (FBI didn't list this but I feel it is a valid factor)

There is no such thing as an instant stop with bullets. The only thing that can provide an instantaneous stop is a shot to the CNS (central nervous system, the brain basically), and even then it is not always 100% guaranteed, but close to it. In most cases it is not advised, unethical, or not plausible to immediately go for a headshot when being attacked. With the legal ramifications, an action like that very well could get you convicted of murder, and in an random instantaneous attack it could be a risky shot anyways so a COM (center of mass) shot would usually be much more advisable. As always, take everything you hear with a grain of salt and make up your own mind how you feel. These are just my personal feelings on the matter. Anyways, the CNS shot is the ONLY thing that can relatively guarantee an instantaneous stop of the attacker. Anything else would be subject to the 5 factors I've listed above.

The issue with incapacitation is the fact that the human body is incredibly resilient and able to withstand ridiculous amounts of physical and emotional trauma/shock. If an attacker is determined or on mind altering drugs that make them unaware of the pain, they very well could keep attacking after multiple solid hits. In fact, there was one case I was reading from the FBI, I believe to do with the well known Miami Shootout in 1986. The attacker sustained what would be a 100% fatal shot to the heart, meaning there was no possible way he could live even had there been paramedics by his side instantly. However, the attacker still managed to put up a fight for somewhere between 10-15 seconds before blood pressure and other vitals dropped to a point that it was physically impossible for him to keep going. Because the body is so resilient, you simply cannot know what someone attacking you is capable of withstanding. As for the factors the FBI touched on in that article, the basic jist of that is that penetration, permanent cavity, as well as blood loss and/or vital organ damage were the most important factors.

This is where ballistics come into play. The truth of the matter is, when considering a COM shot, a very small caliber like .22lr does not have the sheer mass to penetrate as deeply as a larger round like 9mm or 45acp. There are some pretty high velocity loadings in .22lr out there, and I'm sure if you found one high enough velocity you could still get some decent penetration out of it though it is definitely at a disadvantage. For the most part, blood loss is going to occur much too slow for that to be as effective at quickly disabling an attacker. Sure, they are still bullets and any "normal" person would probably fall on the ground crying or run off in shock at being shot by a .22lr. Though, because there is the possibility you might be attacked by a pcp'd up crackhead that can't feel a thing, honestly I say the bigger the better but, being comfortable with your firearm is a bit more important IMO. Larger calibers generally have more powder behind them, larger bullet mass, which ultimately leads to increased lb/ft force, increased velocity, and increased penetration capability. I like .45acp for many reasons, however I am not one of those people that thinks it is the be all and end all or that it could knock a man off his feet. IMO one of the best compromise calibers is 9mm. With most double stack 9mm's you get excellent capacity, and the really nice thing is with something full sized like a Beretta 92f, Sig P226, etc you have extremely minimal recoil which is conducive to quick follow up shots and minimal stress on you in an already high stress situation. Ultimately choosing what you are comfortable with is a better route to go IMO, though try to at least buy some good quality ammo.

The rest of that website http://www.firearmstactical.com/ has TONS of info on it for those that are interested. What I've posted, much of it is just my opinion with a common sense understanding of the situation and my rudimentary knowledge of human physiology, so don't take my word for anything.

 

[Texas1911]

People always seem to get caught up in the caliber game when it comes to guns. It's like arguing engine size in cars, sure a big, loud V8 is fast, but you can't drive very far with it on one tank of gas.

In the spectrum of things, most people can't handle being punched. Now imagine the group of people that can handle being shot by anything repeatedly. A .22 LR pistol might not produce horrific wounds, or drop you instantly, but it's going to deter all but the most determined attackers.

Any firearm with proper shot placement is going to get the job done, but using a larger (9mm+) round just helps if you are off the mark. Let's face it, when the time comes you have to shoot someone you are going to be jacked up, tense, and your shooting is going to suffer.

Just my perspective.

 

[Hobie Dog]

Went shootin this weekend. The 4 of us had .380, 38, 357, 40, 45, 45 Colt, 9mm, 22, 22 mag, 7.62X39, 30-06, and 270. Passed them all around of course. All assortment of makes and models.

Know which one I liked the best? The one that was loaded and in my hand.

We had fun!

 

[XDguy]

Someone one another forum posted a poll asking which you'd rater have in a gunfight, a high capacity 9mm or a lower capacity 45. Hands down, most people chose the higher capacity 9. What was interesting is that most people chose the 9, but carry a 45.

I don't have the answer, but I personally have chosen to carry a subcompact 9 with 10+1(with the option of 16+1). I figure If I can't get it done with 11 then it's probably not going to get done.

 

[Renegade]

I think that was one of his better articles.

I am always aware that John Hinckley dropped four people (Brady, McCarthy, Delahanty, Reagan) with single shots from a snub-nose 22LR.

 

[brainiac]

but even 10 rds of .22 would not make for a nice day.

Sure, they are still bullets and any "normal" person would probably fall on the ground crying or run off in shock at being shot by a .22lr.

A .22 LR pistol might not produce horrific wounds, or drop you instantly, but it's going to deter all but the most determined attackers.

I am always aware that John Hinckley dropped four people (Brady, McCarthy, Delahanty, Reagan) with single shots from a snub-nose 22LR.

I carry a .45, because they don't make a .46 BUT,
I've been shot by a .22 (two rounds) and I wouldn't care to repeat the experience. Did it knock me down? No, but I sat down immediately (from shock I guess) and was bleeding and hurting enough that I was out of action for the duration of the fight. Both penetrated clear through my leg; one of the exit holes was an oblong the size of the last joint of my thumb - the scars are still there 40 years later.

If I had a choice, I would always choose something bigger and more powerful - but I do not discount the ability of even the lowly .22 to do some real damage and I'd sure rather have one than no gun at all.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Ouch, sorry to here that Braniac!

 

[ReVrEnD_0341]

I've been staying away from this one seeing where it will go.

Here is my take... The largely popular rounds 9mm, .357, .40, and .45 is what I'll address. With recent test data, and the new technology in ammunition, they are all creating wounds of almost equal dimensions. They all penetrate almost the same, and permanent wound cavity is almost identical. The great thing about this is I can have a 9mm with 16+1, and rounds that create cavities just like a .45.

For your cc weapon, you should not be limiting yourself to just one weapon. Different weapon for different situations. Concealing a 1911 or even small glock out and about with only a light t-shirt and board shorts isn't the best idea. Having multiple weapons of different sizes will give you a wider range of climates and situations to carry in.

However at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if I shoot you in the face with a 32 or .50BMG. The end result is the same, and you are dead.

Likewise, you should not just go for the biggest round you can. Go with the ammo you can shoot well, make consistant hits, and is controlable for fast and ACCURATE follow up shots. There are alot of folks shooting .45 that really can't deal with the recoil well, and even more people shooting .40S&W that really can't control the inherited muzzle flip with such a speedy round. Darn near anyone can shoot a 9mm with great proficiency.

Carry on.

 

[mac79912]

The 22 seems to be the weapon of choice for mafia hitmen

 

[hoytinak]

My carry will always be either my HK P2000SK in 9mm or my Seecamp .32.