Handgun/Rifle wound study by ER/OR doctor (Warning: GRAPHIC medical images)

[AGreenSmudge]

Found this video recently and even though it's a small study by this one doctor, I found the information he presents very interesting.

Again there are GRAPHIC images and one very short surgery video in his presentation, but they're presented in a medical fashion. Not for the sake of oogling gore.



It's certainly made me look a little closer at the handgun cartridges I'd choose to carry. I used to think just about any large expanding jhp would be idea, but after looking at this. Maybe heavier bullets or something in favor of deeper penetration than the new age light weight expanders that seem to dump all their energy in a couple of inches.

Does this make anyone else think a little more closely about what they carry, or has even changed someone's mind?

 

[AGreenSmudge]

Nvm, I got it.

 

[M. Sage]

Found this video recently and even though it's a small study by this one doctor, I found the information he presents very interesting.

Again there are GRAPHIC images and one very short surgery video in his presentation, but they're presented in a medical fashion. Not for the sake of oogling gore.



It's certainly made me look a little closer at the handgun cartridges I'd choose to carry. I used to think just about any large expanding jhp would be idea, but after looking at this. Maybe heavier bullets or something in favor of deeper penetration than the new age light weight expanders that seem to dump all their energy in a couple of inches.

Does this make anyone else think a little more closely about what they carry, or has even changed someone's mind?

Only snake oil crap decelerates that quickly. Properly designed JHP will penetrate the proper amount. Go name-brand, go with something that's marketed to LE like Ranger T.

 

[AGreenSmudge]

Only snake oil crap decelerates that quickly. Properly designed JHP will penetrate the proper amount. Go name-brand, go with something that's marketed to LE like Ranger T.

I would certainly like to know just what brand/make that .40 was.

 

[Texan2]

HP ammo also has less tendency to pass through bad guy into bystanders. I will stick with my Gold Dot.

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk 2

 

[Texasjack]

The video is very interesting and does, as the intro says, get away from the hearsay that usually surrounds bullet effectiveness.

I don't think that you can use this video to choose a particular bullet. Other published data shows that hollow point bullets are extremely effective, some more than others. In fact, the only thing that really stands out is that rifle bullets far surpass pistol bullets as far as being lethal - something which is pretty obvious even without a medical discussion.

For a cop who might be questioned for firing multiple times at a bad guy, parts of this video would help to answer why that was the right thing to do.

 

[Texas42]

interesting video.

I don't think I learned anything, but still intresting.

I disagree with his conclusions about combat medicine vs. civillian medicine with the fluid resusitation. There is a reason they use whole blood in combat and not in non-combat situations.

Sounds like he is talking to EMT's.

 

[AGreenSmudge]

The video is very interesting and does, as the intro says, get away from the hearsay that usually surrounds bullet effectiveness.

I don't think that you can use this video to choose a particular bullet. Other published data shows that hollow point bullets are extremely effective, some more than others. In fact, the only thing that really stands out is that rifle bullets far surpass pistol bullets as far as being lethal - something which is pretty obvious even without a medical discussion.

For a cop who might be questioned for firing multiple times at a bad guy, parts of this video would help to answer why that was the right thing to do.

I agree except that it seems to suggest staying away from the super light weight jhp rounds that are designed for "maximum energy transfer", etc.

A good, heavy hp will certainly be as good, but usually better than an fmj, but it does raise some concern (for me at least) about 9mm jhp penetration when it's hit bone or other very thick dense material before entering the chest cavity. I didn't realise muscle and skin was that strong or made that big of a difference.

 

[M. Sage]

I would certainly like to know just what brand/make that .40 was.

I'd like to know if there was something between the gun and the person's chest, like a windshield or car door...

 

[M. Sage]

I agree except that it seems to suggest staying away from the super light weight jhp rounds that are designed for "maximum energy transfer", etc.

A good, heavy hp will certainly be as good, but usually better than an fmj, but it does raise some concern (for me at least) about 9mm jhp penetration when it's hit bone or other very thick dense material before entering the chest cavity. I didn't realise muscle and skin was that strong or made that big of a difference.

A 9mm JHP that was designed and built by a reputable maker will do just fine. The Gold Dot example is a good one - very good bullet design.

Skin is surprisingly strong because of its elasticity. Muscle is very dense.

In the end, anybody who tries selling you on "maximum energy transfer" is humping your leg. Energy transfer doesn't do dick, especially with handgun bullets where there is so little to begin with.

 

[Koinonia]

Certainly is an interesting video. I believe the reason the .40 stopped where it did, was because it struck the bone square. Bones are very hard to bust! Most o your ammo tests account for flesh consistency, but not very dense matter, as you would find in the high chest area. The other may have slipped between the ribs, which is why it penetrated significantly further.

 

[M. Sage]

Certainly is an interesting video. I believe the reason the .40 stopped where it did, was because it struck the bone square. Bones are very hard to bust! Most o your ammo tests account for flesh consistency, but not very dense matter, as you would find in the high chest area. The other may have slipped between the ribs, which is why it penetrated significantly further.

They do test in a medium that simulates muscle, but when you look at the fact that to pass, a round is required to pass through a minimum of 12" of the stuff, going through the breast bone and then another 4-5 inches shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Koinonia]

They do test in a medium that simulates muscle, but when you look at the fact that to pass, a round is required to pass through a minimum of 12" of the stuff, going through the breast bone and then another 4-5 inches shouldn't be an issue.

Ah, I've not seen the tests with bone in the media, which was struck upon entry. Please post a reference so I might go and see? I just was thinking that, as the video stated, the penetrating the skin takes up 4 in of travel off the bat, compared to muscle tissue, then figure in another inch of muscle under the skin between breastbone. I am curious now to find out what the hardness of a human breastbone would be, in resistance to impact. Surely it would be harder to penetrate than the skin, and muscle together? And by that point, I believe most bullets would have deformed or flattened to the point of gaining greater surface area, and accelerating the decrease of forward motion.
Also, pushing on the chest, the rib age acts like a giant, albeit in efficient, spring, so before penetration, it would encounter some level of springiness(?).
I like this discussion!

 

[Texas1911]

Interesting video.

I don't think I learned anything, but still interesting.

I disagree with his conclusions about combat medicine vs. civillian medicine with the fluid resusitation. There is a reason they use whole blood in combat and not in non-combat situations.

Sounds like he is talking to EMT's.

Packaging is a major concern for field usage by medics. There's only so much you can carry / use in the field. The EMTs arriving are supported by a truck full of stuff, so I tend to agree with your assessment on the differences (beyond the physical difference).

There's always a bigger picture when you learn from the military. We don't operate on the same limitations in many cases.

 

[shortround]

The only "expert" I trust on gunshot wounds and the wounding mechanism is Doctor Martin L. Fackler, MD.

Was that the named doctor in the video?

 

[AGreenSmudge]

The only "expert" I trust on gunshot wounds and the wounding mechanism is Doctor Martin L. Fackler, MD.

Was that the named doctor in the video?

No, but he uses a lot of FBI data that was originally compiled by partially by Dr. Fackler.