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Hello from Houston never owned a gun and thinking of buying my first... just have one question.

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  • Bozz10mm

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    so like and idiot (I was already fuming) I ran... that's all.

    I will appreciate any info thanks.
    Did you run on foot? I found this on several different websites. But don't take my word for it.

    If you are fleeing a police officer on foot, it is a Class B misdemeanor. In Texas, a Class B misdemeanor is punishable by up to 180 days in jail and a fine up to $2,000, or both.

    Also: Under § 38.04 of the Texas Penal Code, a person is guilty of evading arrest or detention when they intentionally flee from a person who they know is a police officer attempting to lawfully arrest or detain them. An offense under this section is classified as a Class B misdemeanor unless the suspect used a motor vehicle to flee law enforcement. A Class B misdemeanor is punishable by up to 180 days in jail and/or a fine up to $2,000.

    And:

    In Texas, evading arrest comes in two forms. Misdemeanor evading and felony evading.

    Misdemeanor evading is on foot, if some officer is trying to stop someone and they keep running, they can be arrested for evading arrest on foot.
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    Renegade

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    Look at again at what you wrote, then later clarified.

    no where did I write overturned convictions are not recognized.

    we are in agreement though, expungements are recognized for gun purchases, since it actually says so on the 4473? And thus the the feds really do recognize expungements.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Well you are wrong.

    AFAIK, every jurisdiction in the USA recognizes an overturned conviction.
    Right.
    After expungment, the conviction legally no longer exists.

    Per the State Bar of Texas:
    "Once a person’s record is expunged, all information is removed from the criminal record and that person can deny the incident
    ever occurred."


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    toddnjoyce

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    ...we are in agreement though, expungements are recognized for gun purchases, since it actually says so on the 4473? And thus the the feds really do recognize expungements.
    Where we disagree is expungement; there is no federal mechanism, procedure, or operation of law to expunge a federal conviction. Expungement is specifically a state remedy and generally speaking, refers to one of several mechanisms, procedures, or operations such as set-asides, sealing, and expunction. It is a judicial branch remedy, whereas the executive branch remedy is pardon, at the state or federal level. Remember too, expungements, set-asides, and sealings apply to public records and either hide the original record, or destroy it.

    With that background, let’s look at what the USC has to say on this topic. Starting with 18 USC 922, which is listed on the 4473 as the reference for question 21, and defines a prohibited person.

    (g) It shall be unlawful for any person—​

    (1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;​

    There is no language around expunction there, so where does it come from? 18 USC 921 contains definitions applicable to the chapter.

    (a) As used in this chapter—​
    (20) The term “crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year” does not include—​
    (A) any Federal or State offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business practices, or​
    (B) any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less.​
    What constitutes a conviction of such a crime shall be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held. Any conviction which has been expunged, or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.​

    Interesting, 18 USC 921 contains the exception clause, so lets break that down some. A conviction is excepted if
    • The conviction is expunged or set aside, or
    • Civil rights have been restored
    Unless
    • such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.
    That part following unless is important; it recognizes that expungement alone is not the qualifier; the USC (and the FOPA, the law that put that exception in place) specifically recognizes that expungement operates differently in the several states, and that some of states specifically do not restore all civil rights when a conviction is expunged, otherwise the qualifier after unless would not have been added. Alternatively, that means the expungement is not the mechanism for removing a person’s disability, instead it is the restoration of the specific civil right found in law that was disabled as a prohibited person. There’s a handy table under section 3 that fairly clears identifies the how the individual states provide for Federal Firearms Relief under 18 § USC 921(a)(20).

    Note: Similar language appears in 18 USC 921 (a) (33) re: Lautenberg misdemeanors and contains the same perfection requirement.

    Though a federal case, Beecham v. United States, 511 U.S. 368 (1994) provides some real good insight into SCOTUS thoughts on expunction vs restoration of civil firearm rights.
     

    Renegade

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    Where we disagree is expungement; there is no federal mechanism, procedure, or operation of law to expunge a federal conviction.

    Well if feds do not do expungements, you cannot claim an expungement happened. Just like if a state does not allow Governor to pardon you cannot claim you were pardoned.
     
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    cycleguy2300

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    Where we disagree is expungement; there is no federal mechanism, procedure, or operation of law to expunge a federal conviction. Expungement is specifically a state remedy and generally speaking, refers to one of several mechanisms, procedures, or operations such as set-asides, sealing, and expunction. It is a judicial branch remedy, whereas the executive branch remedy is pardon, at the state or federal level. Remember too, expungements, set-asides, and sealings apply to public records and either hide the original record, or destroy it.

    With that background, let’s look at what the USC has to say on this topic. Starting with 18 USC 922, which is listed on the 4473 as the reference for question 21, and defines a prohibited person.

    (g) It shall be unlawful for any person—​

    (1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;​

    There is no language around expunction there, so where does it come from? 18 USC 921 contains definitions applicable to the chapter.

    (a) As used in this chapter—​
    (20) The term “crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year” does not include—​
    (A) any Federal or State offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business practices, or​
    (B) any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less.​
    What constitutes a conviction of such a crime shall be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held. Any conviction which has been expunged, or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.​

    Interesting, 18 USC 921 contains the exception clause, so lets break that down some. A conviction is excepted if
    • The conviction is expunged or set aside, or
    • Civil rights have been restored
    Unless
    • such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.
    That part following unless is important; it recognizes that expungement alone is not the qualifier; the USC (and the FOPA, the law that put that exception in place) specifically recognizes that expungement operates differently in the several states, and that some of states specifically do not restore all civil rights when a conviction is expunged, otherwise the qualifier after unless would not have been added. Alternatively, that means the expungement is not the mechanism for removing a person’s disability, instead it is the restoration of the specific civil right found in law that was disabled as a prohibited person. There’s a handy table under section 3 that fairly clears identifies the how the individual states provide for Federal Firearms Relief under 18 § USC 921(a)(20).

    Note: Similar language appears in 18 USC 921 (a) (33) re: Lautenberg misdemeanors and contains the same perfection requirement.

    Though a federal case, Beecham v. United States, 511 U.S. 368 (1994) provides some real good insight into SCOTUS thoughts on expunction vs restoration of civil firearm rights.

    Once expunged by the State the conviction no longer exists and all civil rights are fully restored. NO would then be the correct answer on a 4473. For states that do fully restore rights, it may still be problematic, but for TEXAS, once expunged the conviction retroactively no longer exists, twilight zone style.

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    toddnjoyce

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    Once expunged by the State the conviction no longer exists and all civil rights are fully restored. NO would then be the correct answer on a 4473. For states that do fully restore rights, it may still be problematic, but for TEXAS, once expunged the conviction retroactively no longer exists, twilight zone style.

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    I don’t think I’v said anything to counter that, if by “State” you specifically mean Texas.

    I’ve said each state treats it’s restoration of firearms rights differently and that the original jurisdiction’s process is what determines how that restoration occurs. For example, Texas cannot restore the rights of someone who lives here now, but was convicted in Tennessee.

    For the 4473, applicants follow the instructions provided, but that does not guarantee the applicant is a) not a prohibited person, and b) won’t be delayed or denied during the transaction.
     

    Renegade

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    It appears the confusion here is you originally wrote:

    I get that, but expungement is a state concept that the feds don’t recognize.

    And most of us interpreted that to mean the feds will not honor a state expungement, and you meant it to mean Feds dont do expungement.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    It appears the confusion here is you originally wrote:

    I get that, but expungement is a state concept that the feds don’t recognize.

    And most of us interpreted that to mean the feds will not honor a state expungement, and you meant it to mean Feds dont do expungement.

    There’s a lot of confusion and that’s okay because expungement is very complex.

    If I recall correctly you’re a pilot but I may be wrong. Anyways, expungement comes up a lot when student pilots are applying for their medical certificate. They usually have an expunged DUI and either don’t check or or forget to check the appropriate box for question 18.

    FAA cross-checks several registries and find the expunged convictions because those registries aren’t public records. The medical application then gets deferred, suspended, revoked, or denied and the student now has an uphill battle to prove sobriety, even though there’s an expunged record.

    NICS even has it’s own database (NICS Indices) that reflects prohibited person status that’s not found in the other three databases...see page 26 of the 2019 NICS annual report.

     

    cbp210

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    This morning I was reading the news and stumbled on this article:


    And considering the pandemic (could get crazy riots perhaps) I was thinking of purchasing my first gun but, If I may ask this question here in the intro section) back in high school I did an evading arrest (about 20 years ago) which was considered a felony. I've never gotten in to any trouble ever since... I am actually a very nice reserved guy. To give a little details regarding the run, it was because I had gotten in to a fight with my girlfriend that day. While goind home the officer pulled me over because I ran a stop sing which I know I did not... so like and idiot (I was already fuming) I ran... that's all.

    I will appreciate any info thanks.

    Talk to a lawyer. You can get your records restored but it will take time.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    I don’t think I’v said anything to counter that, if by “State” you specifically mean Texas.

    I’ve said each state treats it’s restoration of firearms rights differently and that the original jurisdiction’s process is what determines how that restoration occurs. For example, Texas cannot restore the rights of someone who lives here now, but was convicted in Tennessee.

    For the 4473, applicants follow the instructions provided, but that does not guarantee the applicant is a) not a prohibited person, and b) won’t be delayed or denied during the transaction.

    Correct, Texas cannot expunge or restore rights another government took away.

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    cycleguy2300

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    There’s a lot of confusion and that’s okay because expungement is very complex.

    If I recall correctly you’re a pilot but I may be wrong. Anyways, expungement comes up a lot when student pilots are applying for their medical certificate. They usually have an expunged DUI and either don’t check or or forget to check the appropriate box for question 18.

    FAA cross-checks several registries and find the expunged convictions because those registries aren’t public records. The medical application then gets deferred, suspended, revoked, or denied and the student now has an uphill battle to prove sobriety, even though there’s an expunged record.

    NICS even has it’s own database (NICS Indices) that reflects prohibited person status that’s not found in the other three databases...see page 26 of the 2019 NICS annual report.

    Likewise, those appling for LEO jobs still must list expunged records. They don't exist, and yet they do. I have a personal friend (not LEO) who had a conviction expunged and every so often it creates hassle and delays a purchase due to the 4473.

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    jordanmills

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    I will appreciate any info thanks.
    Lots of good discussion here about the details of the law. If you're comfortable sharing personal information (probably just full name, DOB, and state where the offense occurred), I'll search records I can for that and see if anything comes up. That could probably tell if you definitely have a felony on record and should talk to a lawyer about getting that addressed before trying to buy a firearm, or if I can't find anything then you should probably talk to a lawyer to make sure you'll be telling the truth on a 4473 before trying to buy a firearm.

    But you probably don't want to share personal info with a stranger on a web board.
     
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