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Help with gun show laws!

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  • j_dogg

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    Hello! I'm new to the forum! Hope everyone had a pleasant Easter. I didn't make it out to the Big Town gun show today, but I plan on making it out to the next one on the 25th and 26th. Thats why I'm asking for you guys' help! I'm going to the gun show in search of a nice 12ga that catches my eye. However, since I don't make it out to gun shows quite often I was wondering what the laws/loopholes were if I happen to come across a nice hand gun. I've been wanting a Taurus "Judge" .410/45 combo really and if I came across one I think I would have to buy it. The only thing is I'm 20, turning 21 in 8 months. I heard that I could purchase a hand gun from a non-FFL dealer with no problems, but how could I tell the difference? It seems like they would specialize in used guns. Should I just ask them? I don't want them to get the wrong impression. Thanks in advance!
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    Texas1911

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    There are no "loopholes" at gun shows, it's all propaganda put on by the Anti-Gun Gestapo.

    Now, in order to purchase a handgun from an FFL you need to be 21. However, your parents may purchase the firearm for you and give it to you as a gift. That is perfectly legal since you are above the age of 18, which in Texas is the age that you may possess a firearm.

    You may also purchase the handgun from a person that is a non-FFL legally, so long as you are above 18.

    The law varies from state to state.

    It's easy to identify an FFL dealer. They will require your ID, and upon seeing it, they will deny you. Other indications are that they will require you to fill out a 4473 form, which is an ATF transfer form used for all dealer transactions (except black powder).
     

    40Arpent

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    Should I just ask them?

    Yes. Before you waste their time and yours with IDs and forms, just ask them if the specific gun you want to purchase would be a private transaction or not. Most private sellers will have smaller, non-descript booths at the show. Big company banners and lots of new guns sitting on boxes/cases on the tables usually indicates they're a FFL dealer.
     

    navyguy

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    One other point. If you plan on purchasing from an individual, bring cash. It is unlikely they would accept a check or credit card.
     

    JKTex

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    All add, a non-FFL dealer would be a criminal.

    A gun dealer must have an FFL. An individual just selling a gun(s) that he owns, is a private transaction and they're very different as explained already.

    I'm curious though, are there really that many individuals paying for booths at gun shows? Seems they'd be the first ones the ATF would be looking at.
     

    40Arpent

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    I'm curious though, are there really that many individuals paying for booths at gun shows?

    There used to be a lot more private sellers than there are now. There were 3 or 4 at the last couple Houston shows I attended. By the looks of these particular guys and their guns (mostly used hunting rifles and old revolvers), I don't think the ATF need waste their time on them.
     

    nalioth

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    All add, a non-FFL dealer would be a criminal.

    A gun dealer must have an FFL. An individual just selling a gun(s) that he owns, is a private transaction and they're very different as explained already.

    I'm curious though, are there really that many individuals paying for booths at gun shows? Seems they'd be the first ones the ATF would be looking at.

    As mentioned, in the past, old men would get a table at a gun show and spend the weekend there. They might have some of their things on the table and be open for some private wheeling and dealing, but I suspect they were there mostly to get out of the house and "Try to sell some of those guns" for the wife.

    If you want to see some very interesting stuff, you should work a gun show table at a large gun show.

    As far as the ATF looking at them? Why?
    It's not illegal to rent a table at a gun show to sell your private guns, or to be in a position to add to your collection.
     

    JKTex

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    As far as the ATF looking at them? Why?
    It's not illegal to rent a table at a gun show to sell your private guns, or to be in a position to add to your collection.

    Not trying to get out the foil hat brigade, just saying that if a guy wants to sell a gun or 2, paying for a booth seems like an unnecessary bite into the money he'd make. If he were selling several, enough to make it worthwhile to pay for a booth, it'd seem more likely that if the ATF were there looking for suspect sellers/buyers, they want to make sure he was indeed selling his from his private collection and not running a little side business as an unlicensed dealer. At least, it might give a bored ATF Agent someone to mess with for a few minutes.
     

    nalioth

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    Not trying to get out the foil hat brigade, just saying that if a guy wants to sell a gun or 2, paying for a booth seems like an unnecessary bite into the money he'd make. If he were selling several, enough to make it worthwhile to pay for a booth, it'd seem more likely that if the ATF were there looking for suspect sellers/buyers, they want to make sure he was indeed selling his from his private collection and not running a little side business as an unlicensed dealer. At least, it might give a bored ATF Agent someone to mess with for a few minutes.

    I don't think you understand.

    For some people, this is their way to "relax". It's cheaper than a titty bar, and won't get you in trouble with the Missus (Hey, I'm out of your hair AND trying to sell off some of these guns that are "cluttering up the house", honey).

    For these people, it's not about "making money" or "dealing", but meeting other people, keeping up with the other gun show regulars, etc.

    Most of these "regulars' are known and know all the ATF agents who regularly show up.

    I think you're seeing ill intent where none is present.
     

    Texas1911

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    Not trying to get out the foil hat brigade, just saying that if a guy wants to sell a gun or 2, paying for a booth seems like an unnecessary bite into the money he'd make. If he were selling several, enough to make it worthwhile to pay for a booth, it'd seem more likely that if the ATF were there looking for suspect sellers/buyers, they want to make sure he was indeed selling his from his private collection and not running a little side business as an unlicensed dealer. At least, it might give a bored ATF Agent someone to mess with for a few minutes.

    Yeah, the guys that buy booths are the same guys you see just hanging out at gun stores across the state on a calm Monday morning. They just want to get out of the house, talk some guns, and maybe even sell one or two.

    Most ATF agents I know wouldn't even bother them. They'd probably just say hi and move along.
     

    40Arpent

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    That is perfectly legal since you are above the age of 18, which in Texas is the age that you may possess a firearm.

    Texas does not restrict the possession of handguns to 18 and over.

    By possess I mean, own and have about your person.

    I'm confused. If my 14 year old son owns a firearm (because I gave it to him), are you, Texas1911, saying that is he breaking the law by carrying it afield for hunting or shooting? I think that meets your definition of possess: "owning and having about his person."
     

    Texas1911

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    I'm confused. If my 14 year old son owns a firearm (because I gave it to him), are you, Texas1911, saying that is he breaking the law by carrying it afield for hunting or shooting? I think that meets your definition of possess: "owning and having about his person."

    You guys are reading beyond the context. I'm taking the assumption that the original poster is buying the firearm for his personal usage. Which case he needs to be 18 for a legal private transaction.

    Now, in Texas, you can legally give a juvenile a firearm for sporting usage. So he can use it for competition, hunting, etc. Nothing wrong with that to my knowledge.
     

    Texas42

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    Ahhhhhh more "loophole" talk.

    Maybe we should just tell them that the politicians are either too stupid or simply telling them crap to get their social agenda passed.

    No, the truth is too harsh.
     

    Old Man of the Mountain

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    Not trying to get out the foil hat brigade, just saying that if a guy wants to sell a gun or 2, paying for a booth seems like an unnecessary bite into the money he'd make. If he were selling several, enough to make it worthwhile to pay for a booth, it'd seem more likely that if the ATF were there looking for suspect sellers/buyers, they want to make sure he was indeed selling his from his private collection and not running a little side business as an unlicensed dealer. At least, it might give a bored ATF Agent someone to mess with for a few minutes.

    I think that they rent a table because they are old and don't want to spend the whole weekend walking around and around a gun show.

    The younger guys don't mind walking around and around a gun show all weekend at all.

    Attempting to sell firearms in the parking lot will invite a visit from the Police.

    A black guy was doing just that at the Big Town gun show, and it just so happened that when the Police checked his wares, one of the rifles belonged to a friend of mine, and had only been stolen about two weeks before that. They took the black guy and a trunk full of guns down to a Mesquite Police Station where they still have my friends rifle until the trial, after which they will hopefully give him his rifle back.

    This is the second time one of his stolen rifles has been recovered.

    I keep telling him he needs to move!
     

    Old Man of the Mountain

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    Ahhhhhh more "loophole" talk.

    Maybe we should just tell them that the politicians are either too stupid or simply telling them crap to get their social agenda passed.

    No, the truth is too harsh.

    It seems that some politicians are not too big on Truth.

    One of them (don't know who) made a statement that was repeated by the Media Mafia, that no one needs an AK 47 because that rifle is so powerful that if you shot a deer with it, it would just explode".

    AK ammo is not quite as powerful a .30-30 deer cartridge, and unless the deer has been grazing on dynamite, a deer shot with an AK will not explode.
     

    txinvestigator

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    By possess I mean, own and have about your person.
    Texas does not regulate the "ownership of handguns. Texas does not restrict "having about your person" to age 18 and above.

    If the person is under 18, it is an affirmative defense to sell to him if the person having legal custody of the minor had given written permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale, the parent or person having legal custody had given effective consent. (this Texas offense is on the seller. )

    ;)
     

    txinvestigator

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    You guys are reading beyond the context. I'm taking the assumption that the original poster is buying the firearm for his personal usage. Which case he needs to be 18 for a legal private transaction.

    Now, in Texas, you can legally give a juvenile a firearm for sporting usage. So he can use it for competition, hunting, etc. Nothing wrong with that to my knowledge.

    Again, Texas law makes it a defense if the seller had written permission from the childs legal custodian, or for another transfer he had effective permission.

    No law makes it an offense for a person under 18 to possess a handgun, or carry one.

    Are you referring to this law:

    Sec. 46.13. MAKING A FIREARM ACCESSIBLE TO A CHILD. (a) In this section:
    (1) "Child" means a person younger than 17 years of age.
    (2) "Readily dischargeable firearm" means a firearm that is loaded with ammunition, whether or not a round is in the chamber.
    (3) "Secure" means to take steps that a reasonable person would take to prevent the access to a readily dischargeable firearm by a child, including but not limited to placing a firearm in a locked container or temporarily rendering the firearm inoperable by a trigger lock or other means.
    (b) A person commits an offense if a child gains access to a readily dischargeable firearm and the person with criminal negligence:
    (1) failed to secure the firearm; or
    (2) left the firearm in a place to which the person knew or should have known the child would gain access.
    (c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the child's access to the firearm:
    (1) was supervised by a person older than 18 years of age and was for hunting, sporting, or other lawful purposes;
    (2) consisted of lawful defense by the child of people or property;
    (3) was gained by entering property in violation of this code; or
    (4) occurred during a time when the actor was engaged in an agricultural enterprise.
    (d) Except as provided by Subsection (e), an offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.
    (e) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor if the child discharges the firearm and causes death or serious bodily injury to himself or another person.
     
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