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  • jrbfishn

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    Aug 9, 2013
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    So,,,,,I have a couple questions. Ok, 3 questions.
    1. How many innocent lives are an acceptable loss due to cops making mistakes serving warrants?
    2. How many of YOUR family are you willing to sacrifice?
    3. Do we still get to complain if innocent people get framed and go to prison so LE don't have put themselves in danger going after real criminals.

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    Younggun

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    Jul 31, 2011
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    It's interesting to see the sentiment of "If someone breaks into my house, I'm shooting back!" turn into "If Breonnas boyfriend hadn't shot at the cops, they wouldn't have killed her". No knock raids have been a highly controversial topic for many years now due to situations just like this.

    I find myself torn between supporting my local LEO, but also not agreeing at all with no knock warrants, or harassing households at midnight. I tend to be more on the side of I support my local LEO, but if you're gonna suit up and raid someone's house, then you should be ready for what's potentially on the other side of that door. Fair is fair. You can't honestly expect to be able to go into a house and get away with injuring or killing someone, but not be willing to take some hits of your own. If the police can claim self defense during a raid, then the occupants should have a right to self defense from being killed or injured by the police. If that's just too much for you to handle, then maybe you shouldn't be going through that door.

    It wasn’t a no knock raid. They knocked so loud even the neighbor can out.

    They announced who they were. Neighbors confirmed this. The whole damn neighborhood could apparently hear it, yet somehow those in the house couldn’t.

    No knocks are irrelevant to this case. That narrative was a lie.


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    Axxe55

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    Dec 15, 2019
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    Lost in East Texas Elhart Texas
    It wasn’t a no knock raid. They knocked so loud even the neighbor can out.

    They announced who they were. Neighbors confirmed this. The whole damn neighborhood could apparently hear it, yet somehow those in the house couldn’t.

    No knocks are irrelevant to this case. That narrative was a lie.


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    I think it's very possible, the guy that shot, may have used that as an excuse to justify his own shooting. He did acknowledge the banging on the door before they busted in.

    And they did drop the charges against him for shooting the officer.

    I also think there is a high possibility that there was wrong on both sides in this case.
     

    Axxe55

    Retiretgtshit stirrer
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    Dec 15, 2019
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    Lost in East Texas Elhart Texas
    So,,,,,I have a couple questions. Ok, 3 questions.
    1. How many innocent lives are an acceptable loss due to cops making mistakes serving warrants?
    2. How many of YOUR family are you willing to sacrifice?
    3. Do we still get to complain if innocent people get framed and go to prison so LE don't have put themselves in danger going after real criminals.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

    1. None IMO.

    2. Again, none.

    3. That is unacceptable IMO. There is no excuse for any LE not doing his job as in the bounds within the law. Any officer that "frames" someone to gain an arrest or conviction is no better than the criminals.
     

    Shady

    The One And Only
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    Aug 24, 2013
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    So,,,,,I have a couple questions. Ok, 3 questions.
    1. How many innocent lives are an acceptable loss due to cops making mistakes serving warrants?
    2. How many of YOUR family are you willing to sacrifice?
    3. Do we still get to complain if innocent people get framed and go to prison so LE don't have put themselves in danger going after real criminals.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


    I guess it depends on what you are currently talking about.

    1> how many lives is to many when dealing with an illness, drunk driving,malpractice,negligent discharge,crossing the street,smoking
    police maters

    You take chances every time you take in a breath. We are constantly counting the odds on everything we do.

    2> I am not willing to sacrifice anyone but no mater what anyone does bad shit happens to good people. You cant save everyone.

    3> you are free to complain about anything. I personally do not think the world would be safer if we make the cops fight a battle with 2 hands tied behind their back. Look how well that worked out for us in many wars our soldiers had to go fight in with unnecessary constraints.

    Now don't take this as cops/military should have free run to blow up everything that is not what i am saying.

    I think the police system is working out well considering the MILLIONS of contact between officers and citizens that take place each week. Compaired to the few bad things that happen.

    Do you think the Police are better or worse than they were 20 years ago ?

    Fixing things takes time and to me if you look at it in a whole the system is working better for everyone as time goes by. Ya there are times when it slides back ya there are really screwed up things that happen but in general in my mind the USA has been moving to becoming better in all aspects including the problems with Racism.
     

    gambler

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    Jul 31, 2020
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    Frankly, I don't really give a flying rat's turd. I think you are just trying to see if you can start an argument. So enjoy yourself.
    Just trying to start an argument....imagine that ? Why would anyone do that ?
     

    cycleguy2300

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    9   0   0
    Mar 19, 2010
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    It wasn’t a no knock raid. They knocked so loud even the neighbor can out.

    They announced who they were. Neighbors confirmed this. The whole damn neighborhood could apparently hear it, yet somehow those in the house couldn’t.

    No knocks are irrelevant to this case. That narrative was a lie.


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    There is a picture of the front door somewhere. They obviously used a hammer to knock, a lot.

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    Tcruse

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    Jun 26, 2011
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    IMO, she's not exactly as an innocent a bystander as her "protesters" would like her to be. She was, from a story I read, handling money for a drug dealer and apparently knew about the drug deals going on.

    Many times, we are known by the company we keep. That doesn't mean she deserved to die, but if you hang out with such people, and there is a raid, these things can happen, and it did.
    The problem is that one of the common "home invasion" ploys matches the police actions in this case. Now, the police were absolutely wrong to serve the search warrant in the middle of the night and absolutely wrong break the door down. The people inside the apartment had every right defend their "castle".
    If the police would have approached the event in a way that allowed the people inside to understand that a search warrant was legally being served and given the opportunity to verify the claim with a 911 call, this would never have been news and no shots should have been fired.

    This is just a much smaller case of the Waco incident. When is our government going to learn from such mistakes?

    The fact that Ms Taylor was killed and a police officer wounded is certainly not good, but not really the important part of this discussion. Police officers need to stop such illogical actions and refuse to "go along" with such orders. I thing that the Grand Jury returned the right verdict.
     

    Axxe55

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    Dec 15, 2019
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    Lost in East Texas Elhart Texas
    The problem is that one of the common "home invasion" ploys matches the police actions in this case. Now, the police were absolutely wrong to serve the search warrant in the middle of the night and absolutely wrong break the door down. The people inside the apartment had every right defend their "castle".
    If the police would have approached the event in a way that allowed the people inside to understand that a search warrant was legally being served and given the opportunity to verify the claim with a 911 call, this would never have been news and no shots should have been fired.

    This is just a much smaller case of the Waco incident. When is our government going to learn from such mistakes?

    The fact that Ms Taylor was killed and a police officer wounded is certainly not good, but not really the important part of this discussion. Police officers need to stop such illogical actions and refuse to "go along" with such orders. I thing that the Grand Jury returned the right verdict.

    Honestly, I can't say I disagree with any of that.

    But what I have read so far, given if it's actually true, I think maybe mistakes may have been made on both sides in this instance. Don't know for sure.

    I do think that this could have been done in a better way, and possibly no one would have been shot.
     

    Tcruse

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    Jun 26, 2011
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    Criminals can work from home, too. And if you wait until they go shopping, well, lots of stuff is closed because of covid, you might be waiting quite a while, and while the cops are waiting, the criminals can be inside murdering, raping, etc, etc.

    Time is of the essence.
    Except, this residence had been under surveillance for months. If "murdering, raping, etc" was happening inside the residence, there would have been evidence of such and we would not be having this discussion.
    If a police officer comes to my door, expresses the facts in a professional manner and allows me to verify such statements, then if I shoot at them that is MY fault and I deserve what ever happens. Otherwise, a reasonable citizen might rightfully assume that criminals are attacking.
     

    Axxe55

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    Dec 15, 2019
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    Except, this residence had been under surveillance for months. If "murdering, raping, etc" was happening inside the residence, there would have been evidence of such and we would not be having this discussion.
    If a police officer comes to my door, expresses the facts in a professional manner and allows me to verify such statements, then if I shoot at them that is MY fault and I deserve what ever happens. Otherwise, a reasonable citizen might rightfully assume that criminals are attacking.

    That's a very valid point.

    I am one of those that thinks that no amount of evidence is worth a human life being taken, even by accident. And I don't believe that any of these officers had any intentions of anyone getting killed in the apartment.
     

    Tcruse

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    Frank59, I'm not singling you out. This is for everyone that believes in the idea that is essentially, if someone is around crime then their collateral death is acceptable.

    The law is clear on "self defense" and third parties. You cannot kill people that are not immediate threats of death or serious physical harm. Even if she knew he was not the most lawful person, you cannot kill her in the heat of the moment.
    The police have no more protection under the law than you or I when it comes to killing third parties.

    Before anyone raises the argument that there is a law that allows partners in crime to be charged even if they didn't pull a gun, that is a procedure of the law, not applicable to or part of self defense doctrine.

    There are fairly well defined lines around the use of self defense. To go outside of those lines because of who someone is or their value to society or what they might have known, is inviting the eventual removal of that protection because it will become too vague to be enforceable.

    The laws in this country, enforced by men of God moral character, are what will keep evil forces like Antifarts from running a'muck so hopefully we don't have to resort to a system of mob justice with little due process. Killing is serious business and should not be taken lightly, no matter who does the killing or who is killed.

    Most all you have great hearts in this forum and it pains me to see such rash and callous talk. Makes you sound like the little sharts that are tearing this country up in the name of justice and love of man, yet care little for either.
    I think that the Grand Jury exactly agreed with you. This was not a case of murder but endangerment.
     

    gambler

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    Jul 31, 2020
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    The problem is that one of the common "home invasion" ploys matches the police actions in this case. Now, the police were absolutely wrong to serve the search warrant in the middle of the night and absolutely wrong break the door down. The people inside the apartment had every right defend their "castle".
    If the police would have approached the event in a way that allowed the people inside to understand that a search warrant was legally being served and given the opportunity to verify the claim with a 911 call, this would never have been news and no shots should have been fired.

    This is just a much smaller case of the Waco incident. When is our government going to learn from such mistakes?

    The fact that Ms Taylor was killed and a police officer wounded is certainly not good, but not really the important part of this discussion. Police officers need to stop such illogical actions and refuse to "go along" with such orders. I thing that the Grand Jury returned the right verdict.
    A common "home invasion" ploy matches police action in this case ? What "home invasion ploy" would that be ? I don't know of any home invasions that include knocking on the door and identifying that you are the police.

    The whole idea of a no knock warrant is to prevent giving the occupants enough time to call 911, or destroy drugs, or go get your gun, or anything else.

    The officers really don't have the option to refuse to go along with these orders, especially if they are ordered and directed by there superiors.
     

    seeker_two

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    Jul 1, 2008
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    That place east of Waco....
    It wasn’t a no knock raid. They knocked so loud even the neighbor can out.

    They announced who they were. Neighbors confirmed this. The whole damn neighborhood could apparently hear it, yet somehow those in the house couldn’t.

    No knocks are irrelevant to this case. That narrative was a lie.


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    Has anyone checked on the credibility of the neighbor's testimony?

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    Tcruse

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    We are where we are now because it was a botched operation.

    Folks whine about no knock warrants, but the element of surprise saves lives.

    I can’t imagine how many disaster I could have been in if I had to k&a and lose element of surprise.
    " Folks whine about no knock warrants, but the element of surprise saves lives. " I can understand that could be true in some limited cases. However, our justice system must always assume innocent unless by due process guilt is proven.
     

    Tcruse

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    A common "home invasion" ploy matches police action in this case ? What "home invasion ploy" would that be ? I don't know of any home invasions that include knocking on the door and identifying that you are the police.

    The whole idea of a no knock warrant is to prevent giving the occupants enough time to call 911, or destroy drugs, or go get your gun, or anything else.

    The officers really don't have the option to refuse to go along with these orders, especially if they are ordered and directed by there superiors.
    The officers have a great deal of power to pressure the people giving such orders, by use of their unions, public statements and option to move to another department. I think we are seeing many good officers moving from these progressive urban cities for such reasons. Citizens inside their residence, should exactly call 911 and get their arms under such conditions. Police should exactly expect every citizen to do such things.
    Since most of us do not have any "drugs" to destroy that is really not an issue. There also is the argument that removal of drug trace evidence is impossible to remove entirely.
     

    Tcruse

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    The officers have a great deal of power to pressure the people giving such orders, by use of their unions, public statements and option to move to another department. I think we are seeing many good officers moving from these progressive urban cities for such reasons. Citizens inside their residence, should exactly call 911 and get their arms under such conditions. Police should exactly expect every citizen to do such things.
    Since most of us do not have any "drugs" to destroy that is really not an issue. There also is the argument that removal of drug trace evidence is impossible to remove entirely.
     

    Tcruse

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    Maybe I don't know KY law and you do. However, I've never heard of laws in the US that allow cops or anyone else to kill someone, accidentally or otherwise, just because they have some association or proximity to a person that could have deadly force legally applied.

    I don't think the cops should face murder charges, but I think they could reasonably face negligent or unintentional homicide charges. Hell, the extenuating circumstances may even warrant something more minor than that, but to say that everything the cops did was good firearms policy and practice is feeding a reckless precedent for police shootings.
    I would agree if there was not an active shooter in the residence. Both the police and the resident in this case can reasonably be thinking they are only acting in self defense.
     

    Younggun

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    Has anyone checked on the credibility of the neighbor's testimony?

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    I’ve seen no report of a reason to. And given that the MSM jumped on board immediately with lies I’m sure they would dig up anything they could.

    Even the guy that shot at the cops said they were banging on the door. So if it was supposed to be a no know, they failed at it pretty hard.


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