How long do we have?

[Younggun]

So, I gotta get back to the baby boomers and bein mad stuff. I'm in that generation who is paying out the nose but will never see a dime.


Do I blame anyone who is retiring and collecting what they can from something that was taken from them without choice on the promise of return? NOT ONE DAMN BIT.

Really, I don't. I DO blame those who robbed from that fund to make numbers work and support their agendas. I also blame the 20 year old shit fucks who are collecting SS for some BS "disability" that stops them from working but has no effect on any other aspect of their life. Those lazy fucks can starve for all I care. They are government sanctioned thieves, nothing more.

At this point, there is no way to save the SS program from it's imminent failure, there have been concessions made and taxes raised to extend it's life, but I firmly believe the estimated feasibility of the program is greatly exaggerated.

 

[TheDan]

Economic collapse isn't going to come in the form of a post-apocalyptic '80s movie. What will happen is the popping of another artificially inflated bubble. Look at what has been going on for the past 5 or six years... The Fed is expanding the money supply with what seems to us mortals to be at a reckless rate, and they are keeping interest rates ridiculously low. One of two things are going to happen. They are going to stop at some point, raise interest rates by quite a bit, and contract the money supply; or we're going to get run away inflation. People can still profit from bubbles popping but no one profits from hyperinflation; so they'll take option one. This is going to cause a huge correction on the stock market and another housing collapse because nothing was really fixed since 2008. It's going to look real bad... Some companies will probably go out of business... but don't worry. The market always recovers, and the Fed will be back at it again inflating the next bubble.

Government collapse will happen when the Fed revolts and says it's not going to "lend" money to the Treasury anymore. This probably won't happen until the global petro-dollar is finally killed, and that probably won't happen until enough countries can band together to present a real deterrence to our military. That might not be too far away with the US's and EU's NGOs mucking around in Russian politics. Let's not poke the bear...

Not openly expressed but definitely insinuated, e.g. calling retirees "takers" and insinuating that we're financial burdens to society.

Entitlements are eventually going to kill the government, that includes social security. I think you have already come to that conclusion yourself, otherwise you would not have gone on the defensive even though no one attacked you.

Good point. The way the system was set up was flawed from the beginning.

It was a flat out lie... Social security is actually two separate things. First it's an entitlement that congress can change at any time it wants. Second it's a tax... The lie is that the tax is supposed to pay for the entitlement, but in the court proceedings that explored it's constitutionality the government had to admit that the tax goes into a general fund. The so called "trust" where everyone's social security money sits is actually empty. It's filled with special purpose treasury bonds that the government gave itself. That would be like me writing a post dated check to myself for $1,000,000. Does that make me a millionaire?

 

[TheDan]

Hey, what's the difference between Social Security and Bernie Madoff?


No one was forced to give money to Bernie Madoff...

 

[Sapper740]

Before anyone calls retirees "takers", they may want to look at how much they've paid into the Federal coffers over the years. Every year my wife and I pay in Income and Payroll taxes more than a lot of people make every year so I bristle at the suggestion that I will ever be lumped in with the real "takers"!

 

[mitchntx]

Before anyone calls retirees "takers", they may want to look at how much they've paid into the Federal coffers over the years. Every year my wife and I pay in Income and Payroll taxes more than a lot of people make every year so I bristle at the suggestion that I will ever be lumped in with the real "takers"!

I agree.

If the wife and I had never paid into that "fund", then something for nothing (an entitlement) would justify the ire I'm reading in this thread.
But we have paid into that fund over the previous 30+ years and we pull from the "pool" within the allowable confines of the law.
We aren't bleeding this country dry and into economic collapse. Change the law, but don't point the finger at me for mismanagement.

I'm not sticking my head in the sand, but getting all worked up over all this doom and gloom is counter-productive.
My Dad always told me to pick my battles and don't fret over things out of my control.

All I can do is vote when election time comes. Other than an occasional letter to those in office, that's the pen stroke I have in my arsenal.

I don't obssess in preparing for the after-world. We live within our means today, balance prepping with smart thinking and work at being self-sufficient.
I'm not so sure I want to live in an apacolyptic society where I have to constantly fear not only the government, but my neighbors too.
What kind of life is that?

 

[Sapper740]

I agree.

If the wife and I had never paid into that "fund", then something for nothing (an entitlement) would justify the ire I'm reading in this thread.
But we have paid into that fund over the previous 30+ years and we pull from the "pool" within the allowable confines of the law.
We aren't bleeding this country dry and into economic collapse. Change the law, but don't point the finger at me for mismanagement.

I'm not sticking my head in the sand, but getting all worked up over all this doom and gloom is counter-productive.
My Dad always told me to pick my battles and don't fret over things out of my control.

All I can do is vote when election time comes. Other than an occasional letter to those in office, that's the pen stroke I have in my arsenal.

I don't obssess in preparing for the after-world. We live within our means today, balance prepping with smart thinking and work at being self-sufficient.
I'm not so sure I want to live in an apacolyptic society where I have to constantly fear not only the government, but my neighbors too.
What kind of life is that?

Well said! Anyone who relishes the thought of living in any kind of post-apocalyptic world has probably seen too many Mad Max movies or is a really sick puppy. My wife and I have made some reasonable preps in order to survive a short term (up to 2 years) upheaval in our society but if the changes were permanent and extreme, I'd just as soon go meet my maker and let the mob have my shit.

 

[Vaquero]

Hah! Nice twist of my words.
SMH.

 

[breakingcontact]

Regarding the cyclical bubbles that boom and bust from my limited understanding that is much of the way that the Fed "funds" the economy. Instead of having massive run ups and massive falls offs like the great depression we just have a series of smaller booms and busts.

Dan mentions that these bubbles bursting are preferable to hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is scary as hell and would affect everyone. Bubbles have winners and losers. Like a forest fire I suppose. I know that the free marketers believe in self correcting markets but the issue is thats a thought experiment or at best a statistical model. When you have the Fed involved you dont have free markets.

Also since the gov established in the last bubble burst over credit default swap derivatives and AIG and Detroit auto industry, the gov picks winners and losers. It now will reward some industries and specific companies for recklessness, prop up companies that should die and encourage more foolish behavior in the future.

So i agree with Dan short term. There will be more bubbles burst but I also see long term that our monetary policy cannot continue and things will have to change radically.

 

[mitchntx]

Hah! Nice twist of my words.
SMH.

If that is directed at my post, my comments were more for those polarizing us like-minded individuals.
Pointing fingers from either direction (not saying you did but people took it there) is a house divided ... ie the ire.

I understand the context of

Less than 10 years.
Baby boomers are leaving the workforce at the same rate they entered.
Taxpayers are already outnumbered by takers.

Some just chose to swing the pendulum as far as they can take it.

 

[Vaquero]

If that is directed at my post, my comments were more for those polarizing us like-minded individuals.
Pointing fingers from either direction (not saying you did) is a house divided ... ie the ire.

No sir, not directed at you.
mike12345...... took my statement completely wrong.
Started all the ss is a handout stuff.
I never said nor insinuated anything of the sort.

 

[mitchntx]

No sir, not directed at you.
mike12345...... took my statement completely wrong.
Started all the ss is a handout stuff.
I never said nor insinuated anything of the sort.

What I thought ... just wanted to make sure.

 

[Younggun]

Sheesh

Vaquero winds up in the middle of more shit than the Cartwrights.

 

[Vaquero]

Standing around with my hands in my pockets.
Get accused of picking my nose.

 

[Mikeinhistory]

If you look at US history the "collapse" you predict has happened several times in just our own history. They just call them different things, like "Panic" or "downturn" or "recession" or "depression". What I would be more worried about is an actual global economic collapse. I'd say once environments start to crash we are in trouble. I am not talking about any thing so drastic as "climate change" either. I'm talking about smaller things. For example in the Yucatan peninsula the productivity of the land has dropped over more than 50% in the last 120 years. A better example is the rising salinity of soil in central California, which is currently the largest food producer in the world. Productivity is estimated to have dropped by 42% in the last decade. We are eating up the land and it does not grow back very easily. I used to work up there on a farm. It is a terrifying sight to see literally month after month field after field become unusable. And really not just unusable. It goes from ground covered in grass and weeds and whatever to nothing. Nothing will grow.

Also, speaking of intentional economic crash, one should read up on Jackson, Biddle and the "Bank War". That is also not a new thing.

 

[Renegade]

Before anyone calls retirees "takers", they may want to look at how much they've paid into the Federal coffers over the years. Every year my wife and I pay in Income and Payroll taxes more than a lot of people make every year so I bristle at the suggestion that I will ever be lumped in with the real "takers"!

It does not matter. Almost everyone winds up a taker, unless they die early.

My uncle worked from 17 to 65 as a .gov employee. By all accounts he was a role model giver. When I was executor of his estate, .gov benefits said he put in over $75,000 into his CSRS account. Problem is, he lived to 85 and took $1.75M out.

Even today, the max FICA contribution is $7500. Double that for the employer contribution. So a maxed out person contributes $15000. Then look at SS benefits. For me, at 62 I can get $1750/month, or $21000. So that is a $6000 shortfall right there.

The system is broken and always will be.

 

[Mike1234567]

Okay, my posts may be over the top. I'm sorry. I just took offense at being labeled a "taker". I gave my entire working life until my health failed to the point of me being useless. I gave in more ways than most are willing to, BTW. Now that my mind and body are in such rapid decline I need to collect my meager civil service pension and whatever SS disability I can get. At the rate I was investing in my 401K I should have retired a multimillionaire with full pension and (gasp) some SS too. That didn't happen.

I did see an upcoming economic collapse. I decimated my 401K to pay off my mortgage and all debts. I sold a property in NM to fund a raised garden and water well... but that money was stolen by contractor who left a project unfinished. I lived off of what was left of my 401K and have yet to ask for a single dime from anyone. I become confused and need help acquiring those "entitlements" but I don't know where to go except for thieving lawyers which I may break down and do anyway. I haven't even applied for may pension... I should receive 2+ years of it in a lump sum plus a meager monthly payment. That lump sum will pay my IRS taxes due from me having to pull my 401K early and may be enough to fund the water well with water filtration and storage and probably the raised garden beds too. I have enough things left to sell to fund a whole-house photo-voltaic system with backup generator. Too, there's plenty of firewood around here.

The above stated, it's darned difficult for me to get things done. My mind is shot and I'm physically unable to do anything anymore. It's embarrassing. If I get everything done here then at least I can leave something of value to my son. IMHO, near total independence from others for shelter, water, most fuel/energy, most food and backup supply, firearms/ammo, etc. is far more valuable than most anything else I could leave him. But hey, if he doesn't want it then he can sell it and buy video games.

 

[Renegade]

Go here:

my Social Security ? Sign In Or Create an Account

Create an account and see what your SS situation looks like. You can see how much you have contributed, how much you will get when you retire.

Simple math. Find out your monthly benefit, multiply by 12, then divide that into your contribution. Result is number of years you will draw before you become a net SS taker.

Here is mine:

SS paid by me: $94,654
SS paid by employer: $98,964
Total: $193,618

Benefit at 62: $1,750/mo or $21,000 per year

So: $193,618 / $21,000 = 9.8. So if I start collecting at 62, I am a net SS taker less than 10 years later.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

If you look at US history the "collapse" you predict has happened several times in just our own history. They just call them different things, like "Panic" or "downturn" or "recession" or "depression". What I would be more worried about is an actual global economic collapse. I'd say once environments start to crash we are in trouble. I am not talking about any thing so drastic as "climate change" either. I'm talking about smaller things. For example in the Yucatan peninsula the productivity of the land has dropped over more than 50% in the last 120 years. A better example is the rising salinity of soil in central California, which is currently the largest food producer in the world. Productivity is estimated to have dropped by 42% in the last decade. We are eating up the land and it does not grow back very easily. I used to work up there on a farm. It is a terrifying sight to see literally month after month field after field become unusable. And really not just unusable. It goes from ground covered in grass and weeds and whatever to nothing. Nothing will grow.

Also, speaking of intentional economic crash, one should read up on Jackson, Biddle and the "Bank War". That is also not a new thing.

Farming techniques need to evolve. There's methods to retain soil fertility without discing it up and putting down chemicals every year - that have been proven on a commercial scale. They just aren't mainstream.....yet. The problem is that this denies profits from companies like Monsanto that will fight it tooth and nail.

Regarding the cyclical bubbles that boom and bust from my limited understanding that is much of the way that the Fed "funds" the economy. Instead of having massive run ups and massive falls offs like the great depression we just have a series of smaller booms and busts.

Dan mentions that these bubbles bursting are preferable to hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is scary as hell and would affect everyone. Bubbles have winners and losers. Like a forest fire I suppose. I know that the free marketers believe in self correcting markets but the issue is thats a thought experiment or at best a statistical model. When you have the Fed involved you dont have free markets.

Also since the gov established in the last bubble burst over credit default swap derivatives and AIG and Detroit auto industry, the gov picks winners and losers. It now will reward some industries and specific companies for recklessness, prop up companies that should die and encourage more foolish behavior in the future.

So i agree with Dan short term. There will be more bubbles burst but I also see long term that our monetary policy cannot continue and things will have to change radically.

They really do pick some winners and losers. AIG paid back the $100B + an extra $25B interest (early). We'll never see our money back from Detroit. One was a good bet, the other not so much.

A lot came out of that as well. They're stress testing a lot of the banks and forcing them to retain more capital reserves. AIG, although its insurance, also got classified as a SIFI (Systemically Important Financial Institution). Now they're under Fed Supervision.

I'm not crazy about how they went about it all, but I'm hopeful that the changes will buffer some of the bad effects on the economy. You can't go from a mixed economy to a capitalist one overnight. It would take decades to fix the errors of the past.

 

[ROGER4314]

I am a genuine Mutt! The blood of many nationalities is flowing through my body and just going back to my grandparents, we're talking eight different nations! The point is that one...Scotland....took prominence in my life. Scots are frugal and handle money well. I've always had the gift of good money management and stayed virtually debt free my entire life except for home and vehicle purchases.

With that in mind, I look at our economy and simply weep. We have the money management skills of a drunken sailor and it just gets worse by the day! I can't prove that our elected officials are thieves, but I strongly believe that is true. There is NO way our finances could be run into the ditch this badly without thievery being a prime factor.

My dour prediction is based upon the present collection of scoundrels in Washington. Some of us are bailing water out of the boat that is our economy at the same time the idiots are knocking holes in the hull!

We all point fingers and say that the Boomers have a role in our financial problems. I paid into SS for over 50 years and now, I'm supposed to feel guilty for taking the tiny pension that I paid for my entire working life. Now, I'm a burden! That's crap.

But let's not pick each other to pieces. The REAL enemies are in Washington DC. We need to focus on them!

The now retired writer Charley Reece wrote articles that told it straight. You might have even seen this before. Let's not forget who is REALLY to blame for this economic mess!

545 vs. 300,000,000 People by Charlie Reese: "Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them. Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits? Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes? You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does. You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does. You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does. You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does. You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does. One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country. I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank. I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a President to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes. Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party. What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. Only the President can propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it. The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? John Boehner. He is the leader of the majority party. He and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the President vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to. It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist. If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair. If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red. If the Army & Marines are in Iraq and Afghanistan it's because they want them in Iraq and Afghanistan ... If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way. There are no insoluble government problems. Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do. Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible. They, and they alone, have the power. They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses. Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees... We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!" Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

THINK ABOUT IT THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Flash

 

[breakingcontact]

Our gov has allowed millions of poor illegal immigrants to settle here. Understandably so, these people coming from extreme poverty aren't going to question the motives of those offering them shelter and food. They aren't concerned about this conversation. Not concerned about who is paying or liberty.

Aint Maslows hierarchy of needs a bitch!

So what does the future look like with millions of invaders and tens of millions more gov created non-workers who are fine with handouts and aren't concerned about the future or liberty?