How often do you practice pistol shooting?

[toddnjoyce]

…So why even have licensing? This is more of a philosophical exercise at this point.

As the state specifies (since day 1 of CHLs here) the license provides a benefit. Those benefits pertain to purchasing firearms, exceptions to certain laws and defenses to prosecution for certain charges.

The state also, conveniently, absolves itself, it’s agents, and instructors (among others) from liability of a license holder’s actions. That too has been part of the law from day one.

 

[TX oddball]

... but I'm simply pointing out I don't get the point of a licensing system at all if we're not going to have standards. Like having a pilot's license, or even a forklift license.

Sorry, that is a leftist Jedi Mind-Trick in comparing vehicle licenses to owning and carrying a gun.

Again, car, fork lift licenses are mere privileges. Owning and operating a firearm is a God-Given right.

 

[Axxe55]

That's honestly the only perk for an LTC I'm looking forward to and it has zero to do with conceal carrying.

I didn't mean to insinuate your mother-in-law is inferior, that's not my intent, but I'm simply pointing out I don't get the point of a licensing system at all if we're not going to have standards. Like having a pilot's license, or even a forklift license. There's a certain standard of proficiency expected once the license is granted in pretty much all facets of life, am I right or wrong?

If we say "there should be no standard", then I say "there should be no license".

Please show us where in the Constitution where a pilot's or fork-lift license is a right?

 

[CaliGunner]

Owning and operating a firearm is a God-Given right.

So WHY HAVE A LICENSE

 

[Axxe55]

So WHY HAVE A LICENSE

I don't, never have, and never will have a license!

 

[toddnjoyce]

So WHY HAVE A LICENSE

1. 4473 fast lane
2. Reciprocity (if that is a consideration for you)…

 

[Axxe55]

I tried to warn y'all that another Cali transplant would be along to push their California Libtard policies on Texas! Never fails, they soon in some way revert to how things were done in California.

It only took @CaliGunner six months, but here he is!

 

[CaliGunner]

1. 4473 fast lane
2. Reciprocity (if that is a consideration for you)…

Yes, that's the reality (really).

I'm talking about the guys who are all "No iNfRiNGeMeNtS, GoD giVeN riGhT!!!"

If you're in that camp, then the license thing is inherently an infringement. You can't have it both ways.

 

[studenygreg]

1. 4473 fast lane
2. Reciprocity (if that is a consideration for you)…

This

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[toddnjoyce]

…I don't get the point of a licensing system at all if we're not going to have standards...

Counterpoint: who says whatever you think the standards should be are valid and correct?

As a ..mil guy, most of my qual shoots were M9 basic day qual once every few years. Then I started doing more unique things where the gun went from accessory to tool and the proficiency standard went from M9 basic to M4/M203 combat and M9 combat and M249 basic and a bunch of other stuff fam semi-annually. From there it went to day and night combat quals with increasingly frequent quals and mandatory, documented training sessions. For a while I was shooting a minimum of 11K rounds in the M4 and another 2600 or so 9mm annually. In a gas mask, day + night, iron sights, optics, NODS.

Those changes were driven by bona fide mission requirements drawn from real world engagements by people doing the job I did.

 

[Sam7sf]

That's honestly the only perk for an LTC I'm looking forward to and it has zero to do with conceal carrying.

I didn't mean to insinuate your mother-in-law is inferior, that's not my intent, but I'm simply pointing out I don't get the point of a licensing system at all if we're not going to have standards. Like having a pilot's license, or even a forklift license. There's a certain standard of proficiency expected once the license is granted in pretty much all facets of life, am I right or wrong?

If we say "there should be no standard", then I say "there should be no license".

Yes there’s a standard. However forklifts aren’t in our constitution. It’s no mystery osha does what they do because of the lowest common denominator.

This debate reminds me of the nfa debate I have with a family member. Family member thinks machine guns need a bg check or tax stamp. I’m off the opinion it should all be unregulated.

I would like to see people have better standards with firearms, god knows the stupid shit I have seen, but the real answer to all this is asking nothing from people to use a right. At some point, your vision of proficiency would prevent someone using a constitutional right. Now, how does someone not be a danger to the public while not having his/her rights being debated? This is where people need to think philosophical.

Who’s to say despite all your high standards you don’t choke while being shot at? You ever been shot at? I have. You ever been in a fight with someone twice your size that is a better boxer? I have. How do I know you’re not a public danger and will make a bad call? See my point? It’s not my place to say. Logical thing to do is throw away permits and encourage more people to get back in touch with seeing a gun as part of our everyday life. Bring society back to the gun. It will take care of it’s self.

 

[CaliGunner]

Counterpoint: who says whatever you think the standards should be are valid and correct?

As a ..mil guy, most of my qual shoots were M9 basic day qual once every few years. Then I started doing more unique things where the gun went from accessory to tool and the proficiency standard went from M9 basic to M4/M203 combat and M9 combat and M249 basic and a bunch of other stuff fam semi-annually. From there it went to day and night combat quals with increasingly frequent quals and mandatory, documented training sessions. For a while I was shooting a minimum of 11K rounds in the M4 and another 2600 or so 9mm annually. In a gas mask, day + night, iron sights, optics, NODS.

Those changes were driven by bona fide mission requirements drawn from real world engagements by people doing the job I did.

I'll do you one better, why standards at all?

 

[lightflyer1]

No one is saying you have to be an IDPA/USPSA champion to get a license. But there is a middle ground between someone who is shooting rounds into the ceiling, and a guy who is able to double tap a 3" inch target at 50 yards with a sub-compact.

That's the problem with these discussions sometimes, people aren't mature enough to discuss nuance, always going towards the "extremes" to make their point. We can be more mature than this.

Our rights are extreme. They are either a right or they aren't. Without restrictions or conditions, or they aren't a right. It is up to the individual to exercise them properly and safely. There should be money spent for public programs for training and safety and storage and more instead of fighting it. Military should have special civilian marksmanship programs. We had .22 rifle training in High School in Wichita Kansas back in the early 70's. Bring that back. Sponsored by the CMP or something IIRC.

 

[toddnjoyce]

I'll do you one better, why standards at all?

I’m not the one arguing there needs to be a practical standard.

Defend your position.

 

[CaliGunner]

Yes there’s a standard. However forklifts aren’t in our constitution. It’s no mystery osha does what they do because of the lowest common denominator.

This debate reminds me of the nfa debate I have with a family member. Family member thinks machine guns need a bg check or tax stamp. I’m off the opinion it should all be unregulated.

I would like to see people have better standards with firearms, god knows the stupid shit I have seen, but the real answer to all this is asking nothing from people to use a right. At some point, your vision of proficiency would prevent someone using a constitutional right. Now, how does someone not be a danger to the public while not having his/her rights being debated? This is where people need to think philosophical.

Who’s to say despite all your high standards you don’t choke while being shot at? You ever been shot at? I have. You ever been in a fight with someone twice your size that is a better boxer? I have. How do I know you’re not a public danger and will make a bad call? See my point? It’s not my place to say. Logical thing to do is throw away permits and encourage more people to get back in touch with seeing a gun as part of our everyday life. Bring society back to the gun. It will take care of it’s self.

I can respect that viewpoint, but mostly because it's consistent. You don't want any license or any standards. That I can understand (and I can agree with).

But what about the people here who are like "License and no standards", that makes zero sense to me.

p.s - I have a purple belt in BJJ. I have grappled with Olympic judoka, and rolled with Rener Gracie and his family for 4 years when I used to attend his academy in SoCal, I also grappled with MMA fighters (Jake Shields, Rampage Jackson, etc) at his academy, so I know I'm capable of handling myself in a one on one fight. So I understand the concept of "proficiency".

Never been shot at though, which is surprising considering how bad LA crime has gotten, but I was fairly confident of being able to draw, point and shoot if it ever happened since I practiced pretty much weekly doing exactly that.

 

[CaliGunner]

I’m not the one arguing there needs to be a practical standard.

Defend your position.

My position is there should be no license if there is no standard. If there is a licensing mechanism, there should be a standard.

What else do you want to know?

 

[paknheat]

Our rights are extreme. They are either a right or they aren't. Without restrictions or conditions, or they aren't a right. It is up to the individual to exercise them properly and safely. There should be money spent for public programs for training and safety and storage and more instead of fighting it. Military should have special civilian marksmanship programs. We had .22 rifle training in High School in Wichita Kansas back in the early 70's. Bring that back. Sponsored by the CMP or something IIRC.

I believe you’re right about the school programs. I did a couple in school that were sponsored by the NRA. Way pre-Wayne of course.


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[toddnjoyce]

My position is there should be no license if there is no standard. If there is a licensing mechanism, there should be a standard.

What else do you want to know?

Depends on the definition of standard. You seem biased that because the license deals with firearms that some sort of test of skills is what needs to determine proficiency.

By law, the license provides the license holder a benefit. One of those few benefits with an objective standard is 4473 fast lane with the standard being able to pass a background check. Entirely passive standard. No shooting or knowledge test required.

But this is Texas and by law, DPS gets to define proficiency. DPS could state completion of an NRA basic pistol course is all that’s required to demonstrate proficiency. DPS could say the TPWD Hunter Safety Course satisfies the proficiency portion. But DPS chose to fixate on a pass/fall shooting test instead. So tell me your personal standard is any more valid that what DPS came up with to satisfy a legislator’s demand.

 

[Sam7sf]

I can respect that viewpoint, but mostly because it's consistent. You don't want any license or any standards. That I can understand (and I can agree with).

But what about the people here who are like "License and no standards", that makes zero sense to me.

p.s - I have a purple belt in BJJ. I have grappled with Olympic judoka, and rolled with Rener Gracie and his family for 4 years when I used to attend his academy in SoCal, I also grappled with MMA fighters (Jake Shields, Rampage Jackson, etc) at his academy, so I know I'm capable of handling myself in a one on one fight. So I understand the concept of "proficiency".

Never been shot at though, which is surprising considering how bad LA crime has gotten, but I was fairly confident of being able to draw, point and shoot if it ever happened since I practiced pretty much weekly doing exactly that.

Deer god sorry I’m on my phone. I’m trying to quote…I’m just gonna leave it be.

Anyway, perfect! So bjj; you know the importance of teaching. Teaching is what makes or brakes. I did Gracie, and kickboxing/boxing. It’s not about the destination. It’s about the journey. We will always be climbing that ladder as you know. I had found in my journeys I find it critical to help others as best we can. Set our ego aside and help others get squared away. Defense isn’t some private club and that’s how some of your postings came off as.

I want you to be as awesome as possible with your skill level. I want you to share your experience and knowledge and continue to be a contributing member. I’m no saint. I can be an asshole. The older I’m getting I find myself rejecting a lot of standards society has accepted about control. An ltc is just a sams club card. If gun owners did what’s right we would have no permits, no nfa daddy permission, and when someone is dangerous just give him a hardy teeth removal. It’s like background checks…do we really need em? They don’t do anything worth a dang.

Pay no attention to me I’m a salty pissy 40 year old.

 

[paknheat]

Hey y’all!! How often do you practice pistol shooting?


Repeal the nfa.


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