Hybrid Vehicle Repair

[IXLR8]

Now I do not own a hybrid but they are interesting. When I bought my last car I received a questionnaire about features I would like to see. There were many Hybrid and EV questions.

I have an engineering background and understand the difference between a conventional combustion engine car, and one with two drive systems. Who the heck has a background to work on a complex high current system, combined with a sophisticated ECU, and computerized controls.

Heck just working on the battery pack will require a PHD, and a very specialized set of tools and diagnostic equipment.

I have talked to many mechanics, NO ONE that I would trust to be an expert on a complex, multi technology design.

 

[Lost Spurs]

As somebody that has been factory trained on several different designs over the last 20 years and works on them, I wouldn't trust anybody outside a dealer. Hell, I have all the gear and I don't even like doing it myself. It really only gets dicey when the mains disconnectors don't work. We have a special procedure to follow with signatures along the way so if you die the dealer or manufacture is not responsible.

I personally have known of nobody however that has been zapped. I am sure that it is the same way with lineman's work. The risk of electrocution is there and fatal but basic steps greatly mitigate risk.

I also know that with the stuff I work with (mercedes) we have factory diagnostics and standalone special tools to monitor things. It the system is working properly, you can disconnect the fat orange wires and the interrupt circuit should cut voltage.
The new trend is 48v stuff. It is or will be industry standard well before full hybrid stuff. Many of the benefits of higher system voltage without actual High Voltage.

After pondering this prior to submitting, I think of my trainees that only have basic understanding of ohms law and earn the handfull of thumbs award weekly. I just got one of my kids to stop testing and reporting back with "it's got continuity" I would stare at him and say that's not a value. Now he reports back with the pertinent voltage or resistance. Baby steps.

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[Brains]

Some people, albeit rare, have the ability to quickly unravel a system and actually understand it. One of my very early jobs was as an electronics technician in a music store. Sounds benign, and when I started it really was. My only test to get the job was being able to properly solder 1/4" plugs on cable to make guitar cords. I had tinkered with stuff on my own, but had zero real electronics experience. My boss taught me what I needed to know to fix the common equipment that came in the door, but it woke up something - how to look at things not as a set of components, but as a working system.

We hired an E8 senior chief who retired from the electronics training school in the Navy who ended up being very frustrated and resigning within months. He really tried, but just had a hard time adjusting to our way of doing things. He couldn't crack open a piece of gear without the troubleshooting manual, and was flummoxed by not having step by step repair instructions. It really got under his skin when this punk 19 year old kid would fix in minutes things he was struggling with for hours, using nothing but a multimeter, oscilloscope, and a variac.

All this to get to my point. I learned how to see the failure as a symptom of the whole. I knew how the gear was supposed to work, and I could see it's failure mode. By understanding how the thing worked, I was often able to arrive very closely to its cause well before pulling the first screw. The analog gear was usually very simple. Customer complains his CS800 blows fuses. Well, something is obviously pulling more current than the fuse can pass, and there was only two things that could - either the triac the amp uses to switch the line voltage into the transformer, or one or more output transistors failed. A quick pass with the multimeter on the diode check function, and in about 30 seconds I knew what I was replacing. I knew Ohm's law at the time, but how often did I need it? Not very often.

Factory training is useful, but you're not being trained to understand. You're being trained to follow someone else's directions. I was factory trained and certified in a few things, but only to gain the 'privilege' of being able to order parts. Didn't really matter, we fixed 'em all. At the time I was working there Peavey didn't certify anyone to fix their DECA line of digital amplifiers. It was brand new tech and not well understood. They still used readily available parts, so I fixed a bunch of them.

Cars are another big interest of mine, and the same rules apply. They're getting to be a cat and mouse game for modifications, what with added security in the modules, but in many ways they really are much easier to fix. Engines and transmissions have gotten so good, so reliable, that any failures are rarely related to the hard parts. Most of the time it's going to be some sensor reporting an incorrect measurement, or some solenoid that's stuck, stuff like that. If you understand the system, you'll find it easier to see how something like a bad cam position sensor will cause a no-start issue. That and the modules will most often tell you where to start looking. Pretty much everything that happens in a modern vehicle is done in response to a message on one of the vehicle's networks. Pushing a button no longer rolls down the window. Pushing a button flips a GPIO pin in the armrest switch module, which then sends a CAN bus message to the body control module, which then runs some other code that ultimately sends another message on the bus to the door module, which actually has the relay that powers up the window motor. It's more complex, sure, but it's also what enables the fancy features like keyfob unlock, unlock+hold to auto roll down your windows (Dodge).

I don't have an EV, but I'm not inherently against them. I love my V8's, because I love performance. The EV weight is an issue for me because I like to go around corners and EV's still don't handle as well as I would like. Not that this big 6.4L Charger handles like anything worth mentioning I refuse to accept the EV's level of telemetry being required too, at least in the GM and Dodges I'm used to you can disconnect the cellular radio with no ill effects.

 

[IXLR8]

There also unforeseen problems that make it all the way to the customer.

Some Fully Charged Ford Mustang Mach-Es Are Bricking Anyway

A software issue causing the bizarre occurrences is to blame.

www.motortrend.com

 

[IXLR8]

There also unforeseen problems that make it all the way to the customer.

Some Fully Charged Ford Mustang Mach-Es Are Bricking Anyway

A software issue causing the bizarre occurrences is to blame.

www.motortrend.com

Software engineers always have to fix hardware problems...

 

[Brains]

Software engineers always have to fix hardware problems...

Ain’t that the truth!

 

[no2gates]

My last car was a hybrid (2011 Lexus HS250H), and was a great car. However, once I got to 150k miles on it, started to notice that the MPG was starting to go down and a replacement battery was needed soon. It would have been around $3500 to $4500 to replace the battery. Bought a regular 2020 Honda CIvic and actually get 1 MPG better.

 

[cbigclarke]

NERDS!!

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[Texas45]

There also unforeseen problems that make it all the way to the customer.

Some Fully Charged Ford Mustang Mach-Es Are Bricking Anyway

A software issue causing the bizarre occurrences is to blame.

www.motortrend.com

Its the Mustang Gods way of telling FOMOCO you picked the wrong Name Plate to go EV with.


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[Brains]

Or another Ford doing what they do best

 

[dsgrey]

My last car was a hybrid (2011 Lexus HS250H), and was a great car. However, once I got to 150k miles on it, started to notice that the MPG was starting to go down and a replacement battery was needed soon. It would have been around $3500 to $4500 to replace the battery. Bought a regular 2020 Honda CIvic and actually get 1 MPG better.

Many years ago I look at a Honda hybrid but realized the cheap Mazda I was buying for commuting was the better deal. I'd need to put over 200k miles on the Honda to break even on the cost difference since the big Honda benefit was in-town driving.

I'm still cautious of EVs and hybrids regarding long term ownership. My current vehicle as the electronic stop start which really doesn't save anything. They designed it with a secondary battery beneath the fuses under the hood. A pain to replace according to others. So I'll remove it when it dies and place a jumper so it's ignored since I've already overridden the automatic use of ESS. I'm just old school.

 

[Lost Spurs]

Thought I would bring this back with some pics of new doesn't always mean good.

2021 48v setup. Low miles, like under 3k. High Voltage battery failure due to internal disconnect failure. The particular fault code (1 of 2) that was current is a hard stop; replace battery. Car wouldn't start, tow into the shop.

Side note to clarify terms. Vehicles are being built across manufactures with 48v systems. Some do things different ways to reach the same means. We use a ISA "integrated starter alternator" It bolts to the crankshaft at the rear and is a giant armature that acts as a starter and generator. We use 48v ac compressors, water pumps and electric turbos.

There is a 48v lithium battery that is the same size as a standard battery. Water cooled. DC/DC converter sits on top, connected to the 12v systems and 48v systems.

I don't want this to be a product bash. I have been through many versions of hybrid setups. The 48v stuff will be gaining market share over more and more vehicles. The failures we have seen on the floor have all been happening fairly early in life but much less frequent over the last couple years.

The 48v was adopted as it sits below the 60v mark that is a line drawn signifying high Voltage. The 48v stuff shouldn't be able to kill you.


Here are a couple pics showing the new 48v battery installed, the old one on the bench with the DC/DC converter installed and one with the whole setup installed under the hood.

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[Lost Spurs]

Replied to add, when replacing these batteries there is some computer based shut down processes and a form to be filled to determine transportability. The one I did was clean cut "safe for transport"

We have another sitting in the center of a safe space that failed with a particular fault that renders it "not safe for transport". In this case there is a particular contact that we have that will set specific time based recheck with a manual tester. If the unit remains in the not safe category, they "the manufacture" will send a particular special fire box to pack it in for transport. It will then require some special transport by ground as it could go nuclear at any time I guess.



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[candcallen]

I took 2 years of vocational auto in HS plus 2 years of regular auto shop. I graduated with a scholarship to a community college program if I got a dealership sponsorship. This was mid 80s late 80s time frame. I liked working on cars but decided it wasnt what I wanted to do for life as it was headed to the electrical and computer technology that I didnt like to deal with and I was already having back problems, had my first surgery just a few years later.

I have no clue about the advanced systems today and especially the hybrid electric vehicles. I wouldnt not own one, just not as a primary vehicle as I dont know if I could trust them to have the freedom to do what I want when and where like a normal car.

I most definitely wouldnt own one out of warranty nor have anyone but a dealer deal with service. The battery packs scare me regarding safety and reliability. I just dont think they are there yet.

Some of they hybrid concepts where the combustion engine can run the vehicle and charge the battery are interesting but I think battery tech needs time to develop.

 

[pronstar]

My last car was a hybrid (2011 Lexus HS250H), and was a great car. However, once I got to 150k miles on it, started to notice that the MPG was starting to go down and a replacement battery was needed soon. It would have been around $3500 to $4500 to replace the battery. Bought a regular 2020 Honda CIvic and actually get 1 MPG better.

Rare car

That’s about when the 12v battery fails, and the system loses efficiency trying to keep it charged. Common issue with that generation Prius/Toyota/Lexus hybrid system.

Hybrid packs typically don’t fail all at once, cells fail and are cheap/relatively easy to replace

Entire packs with renewed cells are under a grand these days. Have been under $2k for quite some time.


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[TexMex247]

As a mechanic of over 25 years now I can tell you the EVs are slowly going to take over. I honestly think the hybrids are plenty safe by design. I work on them regularly, remove the service plug and the rest of the car is safe to poke around on. I kinda like the battery powered air conditioning compressors on most hybrids, very reliable versus their mechanically driven counterparts.

The EVs of the future should be mostly safe by design but post accident is where I forsee the greatest peril. If certain wires are pinched or grounded they are going to be fire makers. No doubt they will do their best to make them idiot proof but the bar sinks lower and lower through generations.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

To each his own, but you couldn't give me a brand new ev or hybrid.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Recently ordered the wife a BL Lincoln Aviator...EV option declined. Later got a questionaire from Lincoln with whether we'd buy a EV....answered a hard NO. The fleet sales rep I deal with told me she's yet to have anyone wanting the EV option. They're going to do their damnedest to shove 'em down our throats, but at that point we'll buy an older model and have it restored. Screw that shit.

 

[G O B]

The batteries are the problem at this time. The electric motor controls are not new tech. We have used this tech for elevators and rolling mills for years. It is the batteries that are still not ready for prime time. There is no 'safe' way to control that much energy in any currently made battery.
'Safe" is pretty much gasoline equivalent. 35 gallons of gas and an EV battery contain equivalent amounts of energy. Damage to a gas tank is a known danger, and is containable by fire rescue.
Damage to a vehicle sized battery is a fairly unknown hazard. GM just recalled EVERY Chevy Bolt because the battery is prone to burst into flames and like all large lithium batteries it is nearly impossible to extinguish. I do not see how anyone can believe that parking an EV in a garage is 'safe', hell a parking garage is real NIGHTMARE! An inextinguishable fire in the middle of 300 other vehicles with their own gas tank and or battery? We trust gas, not because it is SAFE, but because we need it's massive energy per pound. Because of that we learned to deal with its dangers, and call it 'safe' we are just BEGINING to deal with EV sized lithium batteries. I understand that some Companies send a special fire containment vehicle to retrieve warranty replacement batteries.
The 48v hybrid batteries seem to work more reliably with few runaways. I see hybrids becoming
the dominant propulsion for the near term. Full EV is a small market and will be until something better than what we have comes along..

 

[avvidclif]

Thought I would bring this back with some pics of new doesn't always mean good.

2021 48v setup. Low miles, like under 3k. High Voltage battery failure due to internal disconnect failure. The particular fault code (1 of 2) that was current is a hard stop; replace battery. Car wouldn't start, tow into the shop.

Side note to clarify terms. Vehicles are being built across manufactures with 48v systems. Some do things different ways to reach the same means. We use a ISA "integrated starter alternator" It bolts to the crankshaft at the rear and is a giant armature that acts as a starter and generator. We use 48v ac compressors, water pumps and electric turbos.

There is a 48v lithium battery that is the same size as a standard battery. Water cooled. DC/DC converter sits on top, connected to the 12v systems and 48v systems.

I don't want this to be a product bash. I have been through many versions of hybrid setups. The 48v stuff will be gaining market share over more and more vehicles. The failures we have seen on the floor have all been happening fairly early in life but much less frequent over the last couple years.

The 48v was adopted as it sits below the 60v mark that is a line drawn signifying high Voltage. The 48v stuff shouldn't be able to kill you.


Here are a couple pics showing the new 48v battery installed, the old one on the bench with the DC/DC converter installed and one with the whole setup installed under the hood.

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When you have to water cool a battery, somethings cooking. And it won't be me....