ID Question

[Frank59]

My apologies if I missed this in another discussion. As a LTC holder am I required to show my license to anyone other than a Law Enforcement officer and or a private property owner?

 

[Kar98]

Why would you need to show it to a private property owner? Only time I'm showing my LTC to anybody is if a cop asks me for my license, and if I wanna skip NICS.

 

[Frank59]

Why would you need to show it to a private property owner? Only time I'm showing my LTC to anybody is if a cop asks me for my license, and if I wanna skip NICS.

I thought the owner/manager of a restraunt could ask for ID if you were open carrying on his property. My initial question was in regards to a nosey neighbor. But your clarification was what I was looking for. Thanks!!

 

[Moonpie]

Its my understanding that you only have to present to LEO.

A private property owner can order you to vacate.
If you do not you are committing criminal trespass w/firearm.
Bad juju.

 

[majormadmax]

I thought the owner/manager of a restraunt could ask for ID if you were open carrying on his property. My initial question was in regards to a nosey neighbor. But your clarification was what I was looking for. Thanks!!

They can ask, but the law only requires you to display it when a magistrate or peace officer "demands" identification when a holder is carrying...

GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE

If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder’s person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder’s driver’s license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder’s handgun license.
---
Last amended by Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 1146 (H.B. 2730), Sec. 12A.02, eff. Sept.
1, 2009.

 

[Frank59]

They can ask, but the law only requires you to display it when a magistrate or peace officer "demands" identification when a holder is carrying...

Perfect!! Thanks so much!!

 

[mroper]

You don't need a LTC to carry on your own property either.

 

[Frank59]

You don't need a LTC to carry on your own property either.

My wife says I do!!

 

[BRD@66]

They can ask, but the law only requires you to display it when a magistrate or peace officer "demands" identification when a holder is carrying...

If you go this route (open carry & refuse to show LTC when asked to do so by a non-LEO property manager), make sure you recognize a trespass warning when you get one & know what to do next after receiving such a warning.

 

[Frank59]

If you go this route (open carry & refuse to show LTC when asked to do so by a non-LEO property manager), make sure you recognize a trespass warning when you get one & know what to do next after receiving such a warning.

This was one of the things I wondered about. The law as posted above is pretty understandable to me. My LTC instructor said he was asked by a property manger to show his License and he did. That's all the guy wanted was to be sure that he did have a license. The manager did not ask him to leave. There is a sign in the window of some businesses that state something to the effect that the unlicensed possession of a handgun on these premises is a felony punishable by something or another. I actually started this thread because I had a neighbor ask me if I had a license to carry when she saw me headed to the range a few weeks ago. When I told her yes she asked if she could see it for peace of mind and I politely told her to buzz off!

 

[ZX9RCAM]

This was one of the things I wondered about. The law as posted above is pretty understandable to me. My LTC instructor said he was asked by a property manger to show his License and he did. That's all the guy wanted was to be sure that he did have a license. The manager did not ask him to leave. There is a sign in the window of some businesses that state something to the effect that the unlicensed possession of a handgun on these premises is a felony punishable by something or another. I actually started this thread because I had a neighbor ask me if I had a license to carry when she saw me headed to the range a few weeks ago. When I told her yes she asked if she could see it for peace of mind and I politely told her to buzz off!

Where were you when she saw you?

 

[Frank59]

Where were you when she saw you?

Stairwell leading down from my apartment. She was sitting on her porch. I had my 9mm holstered on my hip openly. This is the only time I usually open carry is when I go to the range.

 

[majormadmax]

This was one of the things I wondered about. The law as posted above is pretty understandable to me. My LTC instructor said he was asked by a property manger to show his License and he did. That's all the guy wanted was to be sure that he did have a license. The manager did not ask him to leave. There is a sign in the window of some businesses that state something to the effect that the unlicensed possession of a handgun on these premises is a felony punishable by something or another. I actually started this thread because I had a neighbor ask me if I had a license to carry when she saw me headed to the range a few weeks ago. When I told her yes she asked if she could see it for peace of mind and I politely told her to buzz off!

Again, anyone can ask; but by law you are only required to display it to magistrates and peace officers.

Obviously, you can voluntarily show it to anyone you like.

As for the unlicensed possession of a handgun signs, those are required by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission for establishments licensed for sale for on-premises consumption and whose alcohol sales are 50% or less of total gross receipts. They simply warn that unlicensed possession of a concealed weapon is a felony. (Source)

I honestly am not sure of the point of those signs, unlike a red 51% sign they have no impact on licensed holders. In effect it is simply re-emphasizing Texas Penal Code §46.02. Unlawful Carrying Weapons.

 

[Frank59]

Again, anyone can ask; but by law you are only required to display it to magistrates and peace officers.

Obviously, you can voluntarily show it to anyone you like.

As for the unlicensed possession of a handgun signs, those are required by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission for establishments licensed for sale for on-premises consumption and whose alcohol sales are 50% or less of total gross receipts. They simply warn that unlicensed possession of a concealed weapon is a felony. (Source)

I honestly am not sure of the point of those signs, unlike a red 51% sign they have no impact on licensed holders. In effect it is simply re-emphasizing Texas Penal Code §46.02. Unlawful Carrying Weapons.

Good post! Thanks Max!!

 

[Kar98]

Again, anyone can ask; but by law you are only required to display it to magistrates and peace officers.

Obviously, you can voluntarily show it to anyone you like.

As for the unlicensed possession of a handgun signs, those are required by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission for establishments licensed for sale for on-premises consumption and whose alcohol sales are 50% or less of total gross receipts. They simply warn that unlicensed possession of a concealed weapon is a felony. (Source)

I honestly am not sure of the point of those signs, unlike a red 51% sign they have no impact on licensed holders. In effect it is simply re-emphasizing Texas Penal Code §46.02. Unlawful Carrying Weapons.

I'm fairly certain he was talking about the signs you see on grocery and convenience stores saying "unlicensed possession of a firearm on these premises is bad, mmmkay", for stores that do sell alcohol.
I guess it's a legal belt AND suspenders thing? Because you'd be carrying without a license already if you entered the store?

 

[robertc1024]

This reminds me of the stories about Walmart asking to see licenses when OC was passed.

 

[majormadmax]

I'm fairly certain he was talking about the signs you see on grocery and convenience stores saying "unlicensed possession of a firearm on these premises is bad, mmmkay", for stores that do sell alcohol.

Yep, that is what my posts (and links) refer to. If you click on the "unlicensed possession of a handgun signs" portion of my post it will show an example of that sign. They are required by TABC for any business with a license to sell alcohol but of which less than 50% of total sales are derived from. That's not just restaurants (The Freebird's Burrito place we ate at last Saturday had one, and I OC'd right past it!) but also grocery stores, convenience stores, etc.

I guess it's a legal belt AND suspenders thing? Because you'd be carrying without a license already if you entered the store?

Not quite sure what you're asking. That 'unlicensed possession of a handgun' sign was around long before OC; but if you mean the offender is already violating the law before entering the premises then yes, that would be the case.

However, further research into the requirement for it reveals §46.02(a-3)(c) bumps the penalty to a felony of the third degree (it is a Class A misdemeanor otherwise)...

An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

...whereas under §30.06 and §30.07 Criminal Trespass with a Firearm is simply a Class C misdemeanor (no mention of the sale of alcoholic beverages anywhere in either).

Just to add, for §30.06 and §30.07 the penalty bumps up to a Class A misdemeanor if "it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart."

 

[Kar98]

Not quite sure what you're asking. That 'unlicensed possession of a handgun' sign was around long before OC; but if you mean the offender is already violating the law before entering the premises then yes, that would be the case.

That's exactly what I meant. Regardless of open carry or tucked away in your purse.

 

[Jcsprankle]

To break it down, there are four ways you could be criminally liable with a carry firearm on the property of a business:

1. You are carrying concealed and the business displays a 30.06 sign.
2. You are open carrying and the business displays a 30.07 sign.
3. You are carrying (open or concealed) in a bar of other establishment that displays a "51%" sign.
4. you are carrying (open or concealed) and the property owner asks you to leave and you don't.

 

[Renegade]

I honestly am not sure of the point of those signs, unlike a red 51% sign they have no impact on licensed holders. In effect it is simply re-emphasizing Texas Penal Code §46.02. Unlawful Carrying Weapons.

They existed before CHL, and were to warn gun carriers of increased penalties.