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In light of these Walmart incidents...

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  • JakeCFH15

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    I've asked this question on another forum and got many personal opinions on the matter. While I absolutely welcome those, I'm more-so looking for legal answers here.

    Since I began researching and looking into concealed carrying last year, I've run myself through a number of mental scenarios, trying to figure out what I would do naturally to try and consciously weed out some bad decisions that I might make while in a dangerous situation. These recent Walmart incidents have got me thinking quite a bit.

    One scenario I keep thinking about is this:

    I'm by myself at Walmart around 6:00PM and I'm minding my own business somewhere towards the back of the store. I suddenly hear semi-auto fire coming from near the right main entrance (most Walmarts I've seen have a left and a right entrance). I feel as though I would immediately look for cover and listen to gather more information; where exactly the shots are coming from, what kind of firearm is being used, how many shooters are there, how many people are in the area of the shooter, if the shooter is shouting anything, if anyone is around me, etc. After that I know for a fact that I would subconsciously want to sneak from the rear of the store to behind the shooter (keeping cover incase he turns around), wait for a clear shot, and plant three to four rounds in the "V" as quickly and accurately as I can.

    Now with all of the fluff out of the way, here's my legal question.

    I have a duty to escape if I can reasonably do so. With the shooter being in the front of the store and me being near the rear, I am possibly 300+ feet away from them with tons of merchandise and aisles between us. He is no direct threat to me at the moment. If I sneak across the store and directly confront him, could a prosecutor reasonably argue that I put myself in a dangerous situation just to fire my weapon? As in I was looking for a fight? Does Stand Your Ground/Castle Doctrine cover a situation like this?

    Others had made the point that they would seek out emergency exit doors and flee, or try and get into employee quarters and barricade themselves in. Others said they'd try and hunt him down just like I described. Just curious what yall think you'd do in that situation, but also how Texas law can be interpreted there.

    (EDIT: Of course these mental exercises can't replace real training, but it's better than nothing. I plan on finding an instructor to teach more advanced CHL lessons.)
    Target Sports
     
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    txinvestigator

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    I have a duty to escape if I can reasonably do so.
    Who says?

    With the shooter being in the front of the store and me being near the rear, I am possibly 300+ feet away from them with tons of merchandise and aisles between us. He is no direct threat to me at the moment. If I sneak across the store and directly confront him, could a prosecutor reasonably argue that I put myself in a dangerous situation just to fire my weapon? As in I was looking for a fight? Does Stand Your Ground/Castle Doctrine cover a situation like this?
    You really need to read Texas law and take a class before your Rambo scenarios. You are not required to retreat under Texas law prior to using justified deadly force. The rest of our poorly named Castle Doctrine has nothing to do with it.

    See chapter 9 of the Penal code, specifically 9.32 and 9.33

    https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm#C

    Others had made the point that they would seek out emergency exit doors and flee, or try and get into employee quarters and barricade themselves in. Others said they'd try and hunt him down just like I described. Just curious what yall think you'd do in that situation, but also how Texas CHL law can be interpreted there.
    Texas CHL Law has nothing to do with under what circumstances one may be justified in using deadly force. Texas use of force laws are whet you seek. See link above

    Most of these shooters are armed with rifles. You mentioned 300 feet. Can you hit with a handgun at that distance against a dude throwing rifle fire at you? Ever been under fire? Had to react under fire? You'll be lucky if you even figure our what the hell is happening in 15 to 20 seconds, then your brain will be trying to figure out what to do. Look up OODA loop and action vs reaction.
     

    Kar98

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    One scenario I keep thinking about is this:

    I'm by myself at Walmart around 6:00PM and I'm minding my own business somewhere towards the back of the store. I suddenly hear semi-auto fire coming from near the right main entrance (most Walmarts I've seen have a left and a right entrance)...

    This is where I high-tail it out of the car service entrance in the rear of the store and you better not be in my way.
    Situational AND locational awareness! Always know where the exits are.
     

    JakeCFH15

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    Most of these shooters are armed with rifles. You mentioned 300 feet. Can you hit with a handgun at that distance against a dude throwing rifle fire at you? Ever been under fire? Had to react under fire? You'll be lucky if you even figure our what the hell is happening in 15 to 20 seconds, then your brain will be trying to figure out what to do. Look up OODA loop and action vs reaction.

    In that scenario, he has no line of sight on me and I can't see him either. There are rows and aisles of merchandise separating us. To him, I'm not even there. Most shooters will shoot towards the closest group of people they see, so his attention will most likely be focused on the front row cash registers and the people in line to pay for their groceries, or anyone else near him. I'm not going to run out, get a line of sight, and try to shoot this guy from 300+ feet with a compact 9mm. That's why I specified that I'd move from cover to cover around him until I was close enough for an effective shot. But that moving part is where my question comes from. I was in a safe position to start with, and I could've tried to remain hidden. Would the act of me moving clear across the store to "Rambo" him be seen as my looking for a fight since I was in a safe area to start with?

    The link you provided did clear some things up. Thanks for posting that.

    To answer your questions, no, I've never been under fire or had to react under fire, thank God. I don't see that as a disqualifier to act at all though. Of course things will be insanely tense in that moment and I may not react the way I think I will. That's where training comes in.
     

    Frank59

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    Who says?

    You really need to read Texas law and take a class before your Rambo scenarios. You are not required to retreat under Texas law prior to using justified deadly force. The rest of our poorly named Castle Doctrine has nothing to do with it.

    See chapter 9 of the Penal code, specifically 9.32 and 9.33

    https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm#C

    Texas CHL Law has nothing to do with under what circumstances one may be justified in using deadly force. Texas use of force laws are whet you seek. See link above

    Most of these shooters are armed with rifles. You mentioned 300 feet. Can you hit with a handgun at that distance against a dude throwing rifle fire at you? Ever been under fire? Had to react under fire? You'll be lucky if you even figure our what the hell is happening in 15 to 20 seconds, then your brain will be trying to figure out what to do. Look up OODA loop and action vs reaction.
    Clearly the best advice so far. Your not obligated to retreat. Do you really want to take on a guy with a rifle at a long distance with a carry pistol?
     

    Kar98

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    In that scenario, he has no line of sight on me and I can't see him either. There are rows and aisles of merchandise separating us.

    Walmart merch barely provides concealment, and not at all cover. You could probably shoot through a lineup of Walmart brand washing machines with a .22 short.

    To him, I'm not even there.

    Doesn't matter if he's spraying the place in a circle.[/QUOTE]
     

    JakeCFH15

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    Clearly the best advice so far. Your not obligated to retreat. Do you really want to take on a guy with a rifle at a long distance with a carry pistol?

    I specified that I'd try to sneak behind him, not engage in a long distance gunfight against a guy with a rifle.
     
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    toddnjoyce

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    ... I've never been under fire or had to react under fire, thank God.
    All the training in the world doesn’t do much to prepare you for the first time it’s for real. You can be the world’s most enlightened pistolero, but until you’re in a position to take a life in combat or a gunfight, you’ll never know how you’ll react when it’s time to pull the trigger to take another’s life.
     

    JakeCFH15

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    All the training in the world doesn’t do much to prepare you for the first time it’s for real. You can be the world’s most enlightened pistolero, but until you’re in a position to take a life in combat or a gunfight, you’ll never know how you’ll react when it’s time to pull the trigger to take another’s life.

    That's a more elaborate explanation of what I said in the same post you quoted, and you're exactly right. Most people would probably just freeze up and stand there, or cower in a corner. I hope to God that that won't be me in the moment. Well hell, I hope to God I never encounter a shooter.
     

    rmantoo

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    I have a duty to escape if I can reasonably do so. .)

    No duty to escape in texas. You can engage active shooters or those in commission of an act threatening life, limb, and/or property.

    Not saying you should. Not saying I would. Just saying you have no legal obligation to retreat or flee.

    And no, I'm not a lawyer, but we've all seen a ton of situations over the years where civilians engaged thugs, and this is pretty well established in Texas. While some have been sued by said thug's family, and a few were messed with by over zealous DAs, all of the ones I know of who were righteous got out of all legal charges- although some did spend money on attorneys, etc. Most never had any charges filed on them, at all. This is, of course, excepting any situations where those involved had former felony convictions, were known associates...yada yada yada...
     

    txinvestigator

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    In that scenario, he has no line of sight on me and I can't see him either. There are rows and aisles of merchandise separating us. To him, I'm not even there. Most shooters will shoot towards the closest group of people they see, so his attention will most likely be focused on the front row cash registers and the people in line to pay for their groceries, or anyone else near him. I'm not going to run out, get a line of sight, and try to shoot this guy from 300+ feet with a compact 9mm. That's why I specified that I'd move from cover to cover around him until I was close enough for an effective shot. But that moving part is where my question comes from. I was in a safe position to start with, and I could've tried to remain hidden. Would the act of me moving clear across the store to "Rambo" him be seen as my looking for a fight since I was in a safe area to start with?
    On what do you base your assumptions, I have put them in red for you.

    Are you aware of what 5.56 or 7.62 can penetrate? Know the difference between cover and concealment? But hey, if you wanna play John Wick knock yourself out.



    To answer your questions, no, I've never been under fire or had to react under fire, thank God. I don't see that as a disqualifier to act at all though. Of course things will be insanely tense in that moment and I may not react the way I think I will. That's where training comes in.

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    JakeCFH15

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    But hey, if you wanna play John Wick knock yourself out.

    I don't really understand why when asking a question about using your gun in a forum about guns in a subforum about carrying a gun incase you have to use said gun, you're assumed to be an action star wannabe.

    This was all hypothetical. A mental exercise to run through possibilities. It's basically a question of "Should anyone in this specific situation go toward the sound of gunfire to use their own gun to potentially save people, or should you stay hidden?". In my first post I said I would subconsciously want to hunt him down. Reality is different. I would probably book it out of the emergency exit without even thinking about it.
     

    PinnedandRecessed

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    Concealment is not the same as cover. It's common to think up scenarios such as yours where we somehow get the drop on an unsuspecting active shooter. Even easier to imagine us getting into a perfect stance and squeezing off that perfect shot that exits out the back end of the shitheads T-Zone. Reality on the other hand is harsh. We should all strive to be that guy that is prepared and actually carrying in the time of need but, we also have to think of the cost to ourselves and our families if things go the other way. I will PROTECT MY FAMILY AND THOSE AROUND ME as best I can. If that means fighting to the death, so be it. If that means escorting them out the fire exit away from the threat, so be it.
     

    Kar98

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    I don't really understand why when asking a question about using your gun in a forum about guns in a subforum about carrying a gun incase you have to use said gun, you're assumed to be an action star wannabe...

    We remember gunkid and gecko45. Well I do anyway, and your post reminded me of them.
     
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