In Regard to Texas Secession......read the following:

[sjones]

Alot of them are criminals and self avowed communists byt heir own admission.I also did my bit in the army,although it was a long time ago.We need to be thinking about our governors race coming up next year.I think perry would succede if it comes to it but would kay bailey?that is something to think about.We need to ask who would be best for Texas in the coming hard times.

 

[Texas1911]

Fellow Texans, I put this out to merely show that in Texas, we are self-sufficient. Obviously, it would be up to us to elect a President of the Republic. I would merely vote for W to fill that spot.

Those oil reserves, they are owned by the private companies that own the land, as well as being in territorial waters of the United States. Texas, is a possession, of the United States. We simply do not lay claim to any natural resources, and you can be assured that the Federal government will at least sue for those rights. Where do you think we are going to get the money to win that lawsuit? Whom do you think the international community is going to support in that bid? Whom do you think has every advantage in that fight?

The state is only self-sufficient because of our beneficial economic situation relative to the rest of the United States, and it comes as a result of being part of the Union. Do you think absolutely nothing will change overnight because of that? What kind of pressure do you think these major corporations like Dell, Toyota, etc. are going to feel?

Do you honestly think NASA is going to stick around? Um, you do realize that NASA is United States government property. It is not the property of the state of Texas, nor are the vast military establishments that the list claims, or the machinery that exist on them, or the people that operate and maintain them. They swore an oath to uphold the United States and the Constitution.

The Constitution does not give power for secession, as enumerated in Texas vs. White where the Supreme Court ruled that very thing. That is why Texas was forced back into the Union, it was held that the Southern states were never resolved from the Union, because they lacked the authority to do so.

That list is bullshit and Utopian ideology. If Texas were to declare independence you can be sure that it will be paid in blood, in a war that we cannot win. Our financial system would be destroyed overnight. People choose to believe this because they are ignorant.

If it were that easy then we'd already be independent.

 

[APatriot]

Next Governor?

I am not going to be presumptuous to tell you how to vote, but my vote is going to Perry...LOL

Alot of them are criminals and self avowed communists byt heir own admission.I also did my bit in the army,although it was a long time ago.We need to be thinking about our governors race coming up next year.I think perry would succede if it comes to it but would kay bailey?that is something to think about.We need to ask who would be best for Texas in the coming hard times.

 

[APatriot]

My friend,

Good argument. Hopefully as we continue this dialogue you will conclude I am not ignorant, but unlike many, refuse to see the "glass half empty, but rather half full"; rather ask "what can we do" vs. "why we can't". My experiences have taught me to persist, find a way when there appears to be no way, achieve the mission even when it at times appears to be unachievable. Nonetheless, I will give your argument due diligence and will review your concerns and respond in additional posts.

However, I am not purporting that such an endeavor would be easy, and it would most likely be a struggle. The nature of the secession would of course be a huge undertaking. I am not saying I have all the answers, I do not. But what I am saying, the United States is the United States, so to speak, only when it is governed according to the Constitution.

Furthermore, in regard to whether or not we have the "right" to secede, you cited Texas v White. This case was to re-establish federalism at the same time maintain state sovereignty following the civil war. I will have to review further but I do not recall that it specifically and directly restricted secession in general, or was even referencing the Treaty of 1848, but rather responding to the single act of secession by Texas when it joined the confederacy. Based on some interpretation it may infer that, but Federalism itself is based on a "voluntary" submission of sovereign states to a federal union. I will be addressing this issue further in upcoming posts.

As to the United States and the Constitution, the United States, as we know it, is only a civil and legal entity when the people determine the governance of the United States is in compliance with the Constitution. May I refer you to the following words from our Declaration of Independence "...but when a long train of abuses and usurpations.....to reduce them to absolute despotism, it is their right , it is their duty to throw off such government, and provide new guards for their future security.....".

Do the following words sound familiar: "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same". As you can see, no where does it mention the United States as an entity.

As such your comment below: " They swore an oath to uphold the United States and the Constitution" is not quite accurate. Consequently, as an American citizen, and a former United States Marine, I swore and continue to hold allegiance to the Constitution, not the United States as an entity in and of itself. Hopefully my ignorance did not confuse you. If so, I apologize in advance.

Those oil reserves, they are owned by the private companies that own the land, as well as being in territorial waters of the United States. Texas, is a possession, of the United States. We simply do not lay claim to any natural resources, and you can be assured that the Federal government will at least sue for those rights. Where do you think we are going to get the money to win that lawsuit? Whom do you think the international community is going to support in that bid? Whom do you think has every advantage in that fight?

The state is only self-sufficient because of our beneficial economic situation relative to the rest of the United States, and it comes as a result of being part of the Union. Do you think absolutely nothing will change overnight because of that? What kind of pressure do you think these major corporations like Dell, Toyota, etc. are going to feel?

Do you honestly think NASA is going to stick around? Um, you do realize that NASA is United States government property. It is not the property of the state of Texas, nor are the vast military establishments that the list claims, or the machinery that exist on them, or the people that operate and maintain them. They swore an oath to uphold the United States and the Constitution.

The Constitution does not give power for secession, as enumerated in Texas vs. White where the Supreme Court ruled that very thing. That is why Texas was forced back into the Union, it was held that the Southern states were never resolved from the Union, because they lacked the authority to do so.

That list is bullshit and Utopian ideology. If Texas were to declare independence you can be sure that it will be paid in blood, in a war that we cannot win. Our financial system would be destroyed overnight. People choose to believe this because they are ignorant.

If it were that easy then we'd already be independent.

 

[Chupacabra Hunter]

do you think our leaders in Austin have the balls to seceed? wishfull thinking but it will never happen unless......... unless Obama declares war on personal freedoms.... texans wont stand for it.....neither will some of the other states....

 

[APatriot]

My friend,

at this point in time....they do not have the "balls". But those followers would be easy to lead. All I ask is that as we go through this "Obama" experiment, keep our eyes and ears open. Freedom is under attack, and the socialists led by Obama, will continue to try and advance their "collective" cause. However, I am convinced that they will "over reach" and when that happens, "Mother Freedom will rise and shake her fists". We Texans just need to be prepared and ready to be her defender.

do you think our leaders in Austin have the balls to seceed? wishfull thinking but it will never happen unless......... unless Obama declares war on personal freedoms.... texans wont stand for it.....neither will some of the other states....

 

[APatriot]

Texas v White ...."Considered therefore as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance of secession, adopted by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union, and of every citizen of the State, as a citizen of the United States, remained perfect and unimpaired. It certainly follows that the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union."

The above pertained to the single act of secession by Texas to join the confederacy, and therefore facilitating the return of Texas to the Union post civil war. This does not pertain to the Treaty of 1848, as to Texas' original entry into the Union. However, I would suspect Texas v White would surely be used as an argument for anti-secession.

Those oil reserves, they are owned by the private companies that own the land, as well as being in territorial waters of the United States. Texas, is a possession, of the United States. We simply do not lay claim to any natural resources, and you can be assured that the Federal government will at least sue for those rights. Where do you think we are going to get the money to win that lawsuit? Whom do you think the international community is going to support in that bid? Whom do you think has every advantage in that fight?

The state is only self-sufficient because of our beneficial economic situation relative to the rest of the United States, and it comes as a result of being part of the Union. Do you think absolutely nothing will change overnight because of that? What kind of pressure do you think these major corporations like Dell, Toyota, etc. are going to feel?

Do you honestly think NASA is going to stick around? Um, you do realize that NASA is United States government property. It is not the property of the state of Texas, nor are the vast military establishments that the list claims, or the machinery that exist on them, or the people that operate and maintain them. They swore an oath to uphold the United States and the Constitution.

The Constitution does not give power for secession, as enumerated in Texas vs. White where the Supreme Court ruled that very thing. That is why Texas was forced back into the Union, it was held that the Southern states were never resolved from the Union, because they lacked the authority to do so.

That list is bullshit and Utopian ideology. If Texas were to declare independence you can be sure that it will be paid in blood, in a war that we cannot win. Our financial system would be destroyed overnight. People choose to believe this because they are ignorant.

If it were that easy then we'd already be independent.

 

[Chupacabra Hunter]

at this point in time....they do not have the "balls". But those followers would be easy to lead. All I ask is that as we go through this "Obama" experiment, keep our eyes and ears open. Freedom is under attack, and the socialists led by Obama, will continue to try and advance their "collective" cause. However, I am convinced that they will "over reach" and when that happens, "Mother Freedom will rise and shake her fists". We Texans just need to be prepared and ready to be her defender.

..if they keep on (current administration) pushing...... Texans will denounce the federal government....Washington will feel so far away.... but we as Texans should speak up now and be heard.... lets not wait until it is too late.....

 

[Major Woody]

Dr Paul would of been the best pick, look at his voting record and look at his constant stance on the Constitution. Nobody, nobody has that record, except a few members there. The majority have betrayed their oath of office. They are being put on the traitor list. Now a fringe of the military is doing it, it will be started by oath breakers, and will be finished by oath keepers which totally out number the traitors, with good hearted citizens on their side. They will not win. They will be out in a month. They are dreaming. They are crooks, thieves and liars, treat them as such.
To defend the nation against enemies both foreign and domestic. Period. No infringement allowed.
That is getting to be a hard choice? Shows how far we have come baby. A Republic if we can keep it.

 

[Texas1911]

Good argument. Hopefully as we continue this dialogue you will conclude I am not ignorant, but unlike many, refuse to see the "glass half empty, but rather half full"; rather ask "what can we do" vs. "why we can't". My experiences have taught me to persist, find a way when there appears to be no way, achieve the mission even when it at times appears to be unachievable. Nonetheless, I will give your argument due diligence and will review your concerns and respond in additional posts.

I don't question your resolve. I am questioning the basis for the argument. You have to realize that while there are like minded people about, they are far and few between. The FAR majority of people in Texas will not give up their lifestyle for it's freedom.

However, I am not purporting that such an endeavor would be easy, and it would most likely be a struggle. The nature of the secession would of course be a huge undertaking. I am not saying I have all the answers, I do not. But what I am saying, the United States is the United States, so to speak, only when it is governed according to the Constitution.

The notion that our state of Texas is self-sufficient easily makes people believe that it is easier than it seems. What is never argued is the economic ramifications and legal battles that secession would bring. They are far, far more likely to crush the movement than threat of force.

The United States failed to be a Federal union of sovereign states when the first Union soldier stepped foot on Confederate soil. It confirmed the superiority and power shift to the Federal level. People ever since have been taught, and completely sold on Washington controlling every aspect of the country.

Furthermore, in regard to whether or not we have the "right" to secede, you cited Texas v White. This case was to re-establish federalism at the same time maintain state sovereignty following the civil war. I will have to review further but I do not recall that it specifically and directly restricted secession in general, or was even referencing the Treaty of 1848, but rather responding to the single act of secession by Texas when it joined the confederacy. Based on some interpretation it may infer that, but Federalism itself is based on a "voluntary" submission of sovereign states to a federal union. I will be addressing this issue further in upcoming posts.

Read the popular opinion and you will see why it absolves the ability, and recognition, of secession by an individual state. Any treaties or agreements prior to that fact, are null.

Regardless of definitions, the only way the state of Texas is going to secede is going to be by the old fashioned method of sealing the borders, cutting off communication with Washington, declaring itself it's own nation, and ratifying itself a new Constitution and governmental structure.

As to the United States and the Constitution, the United States, as we know it, is only a civil and legal entity when the people determine the governance of the United States is in compliance with the Constitution. May I refer you to the following words from our Declaration of Independence "...but when a long train of abuses and usurpations.....to reduce them to absolute despotism, it is their right , it is their duty to throw off such government, and provide new guards for their future security.....".

The Declaration of Independence is a great piece of literature, but it does absolutely nothing to make Texas a free state.

Do the following words sound familiar: "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same". As you can see, no where does it mention the United States as an entity.

Um, it clearly states the United States ... and you wear the flag of the United States, and you are a soldier in the United States Armed Forces. The entity is obviously implied.

As such your comment below: " They swore an oath to uphold the United States and the Constitution" is not quite accurate. Consequently, as an American citizen, and a former United States Marine, I swore and continue to hold allegiance to the Constitution, not the United States as an entity in and of itself. Hopefully my ignorance did not confuse you. If so, I apologize in advance.

Again, semantics.

 

[Okierifleman]

We can banter back and forth about the legalities, Constitutional rights, and economics of seccession for months. Texas1911 is right in theory in a couple of regards. Texas is not self sufficient, period. And, their are not near enough willing people in Texas to do what it takes to split from the US.

With that being said, it would take a lot more involvement from other states to accomplish this. I think that there is more willingness for a different Union coming from other places than you would think. If you could get the Red states to come together and draw the line, you would have the power and the people to make that run. The people are there. The resources are there. Yes, some people will jump ship. But, are you telling me that you wouldnt drag some able bodies from some of the Blue states? Come on. Look at the approval ratings of Congress and the "President" Going down every day. There is a civil war already brewing in this country and its not coming from Texas alone. The people that do are sick and tired of paying the people that do not. The people are tired of this country running our childrens future into the ground, going all over the world and appologizing for what we have worked and sacrificed for, and turning everything and everyone into a government owned and run entity.

To summarize, Texas cannot do it alone. But there are enough people that I believe are willing to make the sacrifice and I am one of them. Are you?

 

[sjones]

Yes Oakie,I am. Back when I was in the army I was taught a very valuble skill,which is illegal to use right now but it may not be in the future.But I pray that it won't ever come to that,that we can solve the problems by voting the rascals out. sj

 

[cuate]

Texas

Whether we can seceed or not, although argued on both sides, there is a dark cloud of rebellion brewing, not just our Texans but milllions of others in many states.

We know the problem, obama and his socialistic, moslem goals, appointees of so called czar positions, most appointees, commies, crooks, tax evaders and the like. His in the pocket political toadies, the liberal democrats, and the stupid racists who helped elect him because of what he is.

We know the remedies available, the peaceful approach which is voting him and them out of office, But will the damn fool damage the country beyond repair before that may be accomplished ? The next situation might be another Lee Harvey Oswald but would likely eventually destroy the 2nd Amendment as well by the democrats in retaliation.

And there is the power of the people, the word militia which is persons old and big enough to carry a rifle, when patriots get their bellies full of that obama despot, they may rise like the volcano, Krakatoa before erupting. A race war will also be on the sidelines at the same time as obama's strongest support will come out to do battle.

Whats next ? Your guess is as good as mine....

 

[sjones]

I wouldn't want him taken out by guns ,because that would give the anti's all the reason they need to come down really hard on all of us.That would just push their agenda that much faster.

 

[APatriot]

I am one of those as you probably can tell.....

However, although 1911 has a good argument as I have stated, I am always taken back at responses that base there position upon looking at the glass "half empty".

Furthermore, 1911 cited Texas v White as a reason Texas can't secede. Please note the following from Texas v White:

"Neither the Texas Constitution, nor the Constitution of the united States, explicitly or implicitly disallows the secession of Texas (or any other "free and independent State") from the United States. Joining the "Union" was ever and always voluntary, rendering voluntary withdrawal an equally lawful and viable option (regardless of what any self-appointed academic, media, or government "experts"—including Abraham Lincoln himself—may have ever said)."

Moreover, "Both the original (1836) and the current (1876) Texas Constitutions also state that "All political power is inherent in the people ... they have at all times the inalienable right to alter their government in such manner as they might think proper."

Didn’t the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Texas v. White prove that secession is unconstitutional?

NO. With all due respect, 1911 is mistaken. Texas v White did not address secession. Period.

"...Our conclusion therefore is, that Texas continued to be a State, and a State of the Union."
— Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700, 703 (1868)

In other words, Texas, per Texas v White, never seceded.

Your points about "other" states and their disenchantment with our current assault on individual freedoms is well stated, and representative of looking at the glass as "half full" rather than "half empty" as I believe 1911 approaches this topic.

I have been and will continue to join those who wish to defend "Mother Freedom". May I simply reference my signature below.

We can banter back and forth about the legalities, Constitutional rights, and economics of seccession for months. Texas1911 is right in theory in a couple of regards. Texas is not self sufficient, period. And, their are not near enough willing people in Texas to do what it takes to split from the US.

With that being said, it would take a lot more involvement from other states to accomplish this. I think that there is more willingness for a different Union coming from other places than you would think. If you could get the Red states to come together and draw the line, you would have the power and the people to make that run. The people are there. The resources are there. Yes, some people will jump ship. But, are you telling me that you wouldnt drag some able bodies from some of the Blue states? Come on. Look at the approval ratings of Congress and the "President" Going down every day. There is a civil war already brewing in this country and its not coming from Texas alone. The people that do are sick and tired of paying the people that do not. The people are tired of this country running our childrens future into the ground, going all over the world and appologizing for what we have worked and sacrificed for, and turning everything and everyone into a government owned and run entity.

To summarize, Texas cannot do it alone. But there are enough people that I believe are willing to make the sacrifice and I am one of them. Are you?

 

[APatriot]

Simply semantics?

1911 you stated: "Um, it clearly states the United States ... and you wear the flag of the United States, and you are a soldier in the United States Armed Forces. The entity is obviously implied. Again, semantics."

Not semantics at all. The defense and support of the Constitution per the oath of allegiance is the focus....the fact of the United States merely answers the question of "the Constitution of "what" (i.e., the United States).

With all due respect, your dismissal as merely semantics is premature.

 

[SiscoKid]

Sadly even though there are many in Texas who believe we could pull this off, it just won't happen. As an Ex Marine, I am trained and prepared to stand up for MY rights too. But here's the problem...

There is still a majority of nutjobs in this country, Obama voters, who actually believe that he is doing good. Any problems are being caused by republicans who are fighting him. We should just march lock-step in line, shut our mouths, and let them run things because Bush screwed up the country. Any and all problems today are still the cause of the last eight years.

Therefore, if we whine and threaten to secede we are just a bunch of knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, gun nuts who all married our cousins. Get the picture?

It's an uphill battle and I don't know if we can succeed.

 

[APatriot]

Semper Fi my friend,...

I understand how we would be characterized by the LEFT. HOW we would proceed to protect our individual freedoms will go along way in either supporting or negating the characterization we are "just a bunch of knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, gun nuts who all married our cousins".

Sadly even though there are many in Texas who believe we could pull this off, it just won't happen. As an Ex Marine, I am trained and prepared to stand up for MY rights too. But here's the problem...

There is still a majority of nutjobs in this country, Obama voters, who actually believe that he is doing good. Any problems are being caused by republicans who are fighting him. We should just march lock-step in line, shut our mouths, and let them run things because Bush screwed up the country. Any and all problems today are still the cause of the last eight years.

Therefore, if we whine and threaten to secede we are just a bunch of knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, gun nuts who all married our cousins. Get the picture?

It's an uphill battle and I don't know if we can succeed.

 

[Texas1911]

We are going to keep this topic to this thread. Any additional threads will be deleted.

 

[APatriot]

Thanks my friend.

I will certainly comply.

We are going to keep this topic to this thread. Any additional threads will be deleted.