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Innocent gun owners jailed in NYC

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  • heavygunner8

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    heavygunner8,

    With all due respect, you misspelled Fascists Leftists [liberal]. In reality, the contemporary left is actually as far right is it gets.

    Lets explain this using leftists logic. There are NO woolly mammoths in the US, there are no reported deaths by woolly mammoth, therefore, there are no deaths in the US.

    The leftists like to factor in suicide by firearm to inflate the murder statistics. They will not tell you that the US suicide rate is on par with gun free, free socialized healthcare Europe and falls behind gun free Japan which falls behind gun free S Korea.

    Yea, no one seems to question that the attack in Paris was carried out with sticks and rocks since the French gun control laws successfully prohibit the possession of full auto weapons and bombs. The antigun laws in Britain have driven the crime rate so high, the gov is trying to outlaw knives from what I hear. I read somewhere that if a GB homeowner hits a home invader with a cricket bat, he/she could face more prison time than the invader but do not know if that's accurate. Maybe someone can clarify this.

    Do some reading in the FBI statistics. From what I can tell, if we eliminate the top 10 or 15 Democratically created high crime areas in these US, we move to the top ten list of safest countries. Look at the Golden star of Democratic achievement in social reform and gun control, Chicago, then look at Houston that stops short of having gun vending machines on street corners. The demographics of the two are similar yet Houston's murder rate is a fraction of Chicago if I remember correctly. If it's complete safety you want, I recall the streets of Moscow during the Soviet era being among the safest in the world. I suppose there were people even then, as the left now believes, that the bars in the window and the armed [prison] guard outside the door are there to keep them safe. :)

    I hope you realize I'm not advocating for gun control. Believe it or not, China is actually one of the safest countries in the world. You can be a 5' tall 95 pound female and safely walk down a major city street at 3 am in the morning. Not saying there is no crime, but the likelihood of you getting raped, robbed, murder is extremely low. You won't hear about that in western media, because that would make our enemy look good. Having lived in China for the first half of my life, I know real life experience backs up that statistic. China also has strict gun laws and a culture where guns are seen as something untouchable. China also has many crimes where the punishment is extremely severe (death). The culture there, over the centuries, has made people more docile. Modern day China is also only communist in name, when they're anything but. So in that kind of cultural and political atmosphere, their gun control law works. I think in a more free society like Europe, America, or the west in general, guns in civilian hands are required to maintain a low crime rate. So what I'm trying to say is, gun control needs to fit a culture and political atmosphere for it to reduce overall crime. Gun control works for some countries (China) but not all (ie, the USA, UK, ...etc). And also the fact guns are part of American culture and has been for over 2 centuries. They're also everywhere in America. So gun control here would be a laughable solution.
    Target Sports
     
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    easy rider

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    I don't think it's so much China's gun laws are working as much as it's their courts and prisons are much more stricter. As with many Asian countries, there is no time off for good behavior or parole, you're lucky to get a blanket and enough food. There if you do the crime you will do the time, that is if they don't just shoot you and bill your family for the bullet.
     

    heavygunner8

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    I don't think it's so much China's gun laws are working as much as it's their courts and prisons are much more stricter. As with many Asian countries, there is no time off for good behavior or parole, you're lucky to get a blanket and enough food. There if you do the crime you will do the time, that is if they don't just shoot you and bill your family for the bullet.

    I didn't say the gun laws are the only reason why the crimes are down. The overall culture and the way people think just isn't the same as what we experience here in the US. That and also the punishment for crimes are much harsher. Once you've lived there for an extended period of time, you'll understand why guns should definitely be controlled in China. As for the prison system in China, like everything else there, it's all about who you know and how much money you're willing to bribe. This is very common in China. Chinese law and courts are only a facade for the rest of the world to see, when in reality, everything has a price as long as word doesn't get out and it doesn't piss off too many people. So in essence, the laws are always vague, and by and large, vast majority of the population are ignorant of the law anyways. In a country of 1.5 billion, where the vast majority of the population still lives in rural poverty, enforcement of the law is very difficult. In this kind of environment, allowing people to buy and own guns would be a disaster.

    What makes America so unique is the fact that this is the only country on Earth that was originally designed on sheets of paper. All the other cultures and countries sorta just came about through the centuries. Bribery exists, but is much rarer. And rule of law, overall, is held up and enforced. Combined with the 2nd amendment and gun culture, gun control just doesn't fit in.
     
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    easy rider

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    Personally I don't think anyone should be deprived of weapons to defend one's self anywhere on earth. I wouldn't defend China's laws as good for any average citizen, because clearly it is tyrannical government.
     

    heavygunner8

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    Personally I don't think anyone should be deprived of weapons to defend one's self anywhere on earth. I wouldn't defend China's laws as good for any average citizen, because clearly it is tyrannical government.

    That's to be judged by the people living there. Most Chinese folks there tend to want to be left alone and live their lives in peace. The way to do that is to obey their tyrannical government. So long as that government continues to bring economic prosperity and keep the crime rate low, there is no reason for anyone to do anything different.
     

    easy rider

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    I'm sure if you took a poll of all the people in the world you would get much the same on average, to be left alone and live their lives in peace.
     

    Younggun

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    That's to be judged by the people living there. Most Chinese folks there tend to want to be left alone and live their lives in peace. The way to do that is to obey their tyrannical government. So long as that government continues to bring economic prosperity and keep the crime rate low, there is no reason for anyone to do anything different.


    If we agree that everyone is endowed with certain inalienable rights, can we say that it is for a majority to decide that a minority...or even one person should be unable to exercise the right to defend ones self? If the majority of Chinese are ok with giving up that right does it really make it ok to wipe away the right of the one?


    I mean this in a philosophical sense as I have no interest in becoming involved in the plite of the Chinese people. it does sound like an armed populace would be terrible for China. Especially for the tyrannical government you mentioned.
     

    heavygunner8

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    If we agree that everyone is endowed with certain inalienable rights, can we say that it is for a majority to decide that a minority...or even one person should be unable to exercise the right to defend ones self? If the majority of Chinese are ok with giving up that right does it really make it ok to wipe away the right of the one?


    I mean this in a philosophical sense as I have no interest in becoming involved in the plite of the Chinese people. it does sound like an armed populace would be terrible for China. Especially for the tyrannical government you mentioned.

    You have to understand, what you see as tyrannical, the Chinese people do not. What you see as an inalienable right to bear arms is not part of the Chinese psyche or philosophy. You're using your own filters to judge a whole another culture. You call it "plight", they call it happiness. Their streets are virtually 99% safe from violent crime, and their economy is booming, and people's lives are much better compared to 30 years ago. Again, not defending gun control. I'm simply saying the idea of the 2nd amendment is not agreed upon by all, and for some cultures/countries, overall lives are better without it.
     
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    Younggun

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    I was only looking at it from the philosophical view.

    If it is an inalienable right then it exists regardless of the knowledge of its existence. If one of one million yearns for that right is it moral to suppress it? Does it matter if make a difference if the exercise of that inienavke right leads to abuse by some (not all) who exercise it?

    A bird in a cage is content if it's never been outside of the bars.

    I guess I'm trying to create a thought exercise from something too easily connected to a real world situation. I do believe such thinking can often be applied to our own society when applying equal logic to our own balancing of rights. Do we someday reach a point where our rights have been forgotten and the American people are content to be left alone so long as they stay in their place?


    Anyways, wasn't trying to pick an argument over the rights and wrongs of the Chinese government. I would be far too uneducated to be involved without making a fool of myself.
     

    motorcarman

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    In places like China, over 90% of the people are CHINESE. Here in the US, over 90% of the people are EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!! Everybody that hates everyone else lives next door to someone that in another part of the world might be at war.

    I'm sure that accounts for some of the 'harmony'.

    bob
     

    cwo4uscgret

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    Like it or not as others have said both of the people mentioned violated New York State Firearms Laws. You would likely be arrested in downtown Chicago for the same reasons - concealed carry without a proper license; hi-caps magazines; etc.

    Arguing that you have an out of state concealed firearms license when your in New York City is a moot point - its illegal to carry concealed in NYC without a NYC concealed license.

    That said - I don't like restrictive gun control laws like in NYC, Chicago, and other locales; but if I am going to travel to those locations I need to know what the law of the land is. When my wife and I moved to Texas from Michigan a few years ago I returned to MI to bring my firearms back to Texas. (moving company wanted too much money to transport) Since my friend who helped me drive and I were going to be carrying concealed I planned our road trip routing to avoid driving through Illinois. I didn't want or need the hassle nor did I want Illinois become the owner of my gun collection!
     

    thequintessentialman

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    Guys, I think we are becoming lost in the trees searching for the forest. At issue are laws that create crime where none exist. When taping a plastic soda bottle to the end of a firearm and firing a round through it can land you in the Federal pen, there is a big problem. The difference between a law abiding citizen and a felon should not be dictated by which side of a (internal US) state, city or political boundary you are standing on. This is beyond ludicrous.
     

    OldCurlyWolf

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    Like it or not as others have said both of the people mentioned violated New York State Firearms Laws. You would likely be arrested in downtown Chicago for the same reasons - concealed carry without a proper license; hi-caps magazines; etc.

    Arguing that you have an out of state concealed firearms license when your in New York City is a moot point - its illegal to carry concealed in NYC without a NYC concealed license.

    That said - I don't like restrictive gun control laws like in NYC, Chicago, and other locales; but if I am going to travel to those locations I need to know what the law of the land is. When my wife and I moved to Texas from Michigan a few years ago I returned to MI to bring my firearms back to Texas. (moving company wanted too much money to transport) Since my friend who helped me drive and I were going to be carrying concealed I planned our road trip routing to avoid driving through Illinois. I didn't want or need the hassle nor did I want Illinois become the owner of my gun collection!

    In 2009 I traveled from Texas to Janesville, WI and back. I drove an extra 100 miles each way to AVOID Illinois. Since Illinois recently revised their law, it wouldn't be necessary now, but I would still avoid Illinois.
     
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