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Instructors Wearing Body Armor during CHL and Pistol Courses

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  • txinvestigator

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    This post is proof I need to dry fire multi-quotes before going hot

    There may be some mis-communication here. When I say turns and movements- I am talking about a controlled firing line. If you are talking team movements with short barreled weapons, that falls into the CQB arena and I would mandate plates and helmets- not soft stuff.

    As far as the foot stuck issue- the consistency of the ground on the range is a primary consideration as to whether the training happens or not. And unless you're doing some silly techniques that I had some Australian SAS guys try to sell me on overseas, you should have no more risk falling over doing turns than you would standing.

    How about a Russian Spetznas....? ;) (old inside joke)

    Again, I agree with you mostly 100%, except forgoing body armor because you think a person won't trip or fall.

    I am curious; do you train if it rains? Only on flat ground/concrete or blacktop?
    Target Sports
     

    Green Eye Tactical

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    How about a Russian Spetznas....? ;) (old inside joke)

    Again, I agree with you mostly 100%, except forgoing body armor because you think a person won't trip or fall.

    I am curious; do you train if it rains? Only on flat ground/concrete or blacktop?

    Hehe, I was on that range the day after the Russian episode happened. Talked to a guy who attended that course. Sooo many things were wrong.

    Again, for what I'm talking about- I KNOW someone isn't going to trip or fall. (Or at least there isn't an increased chance over doing stationary tasks)

    As far as the rain comment- I'm assuming this is an attempt at humor considering my background, but I do train in all weather conditions. But now we are getting into "what if's". There are no constants when it comes to safety control measures. It is always a case-by-case assessment. If the traction environment is low or inconsistent, then the training is either modified to accommodate it or an increase in personal protective gear is implemented. However, if the traction environment is so low that it is causing a safety issue and you just slap on armor and call it good- you are wrong.

    Now- there is a difference between training Civilians, Law Enforcement, and Military. And it is the level of risk that the client and instructor is willing to assume, based on mission requirements. Have I ran across the frozen wing of a 737 with a loaded weapon? Yep. Would I have a civilian client (or an LE client) do it just because they are armored up? Hell no.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Hehe, I was on that range the day after the Russian episode happened. Talked to a guy who attended that course. Sooo many things were wrong.

    Again, for what I'm talking about- I KNOW someone isn't going to trip or fall. (Or at least there isn't an increased chance over doing stationary tasks)

    As far as the rain comment- I'm assuming this is an attempt at humor considering my background, but I do train in all weather conditions. But now we are getting into "what if's". There are no constants when it comes to safety control measures. It is always a case-by-case assessment. If the traction environment is low or inconsistent, then the training is either modified to accommodate it or an increase in personal protective gear is implemented. However, if the traction environment is so low that it is causing a safety issue and you just slap on armor and call it good- you are wrong.

    Now- there is a difference between training Civilians, Law Enforcement, and Military. And it is the level of risk that the client and instructor is willing to assume, based on mission requirements. Have I ran across the frozen wing of a 737 with a loaded weapon? Yep. Would I have a civilian client (or an LE client) do it just because they are armored up? Hell no.

    No offense meant from me. I am just asking questions and offering my POV based on my training and experience.

    I am no Unit operator nor have I run across a frozen wing of anything carrying anything. ;) But I have trained with some well respected folks.

    I appreciate your POV.....
     

    Green Eye Tactical

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    No offense meant from me. I am just asking questions and offering my POV based on my training and experience.

    I am no Unit operator nor have I run across a frozen wing of anything carrying anything. ;) But I have trained with some well respected folks.

    I appreciate your POV.....

    No offense taken, my skin isn't very thin. And I wasn't trying to pull out an elitist card or anything.

    I appreciate and understand your point of view as well. I'll never fault someone for wearing protective gear (unless you're being a rock head and about to become a heat casualty). One of my biggest pet peeves with training is conducting an intelligent risk assessment.
     

    F350-6

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    Tacticool never even crossed my mind.

    Body armor is a great idea for an instructor or anybody in a live fire situation.

    Including a CHL class? Granted I haven't been to too many CHL classes, but I've seen more unsafe behavior at the range than I have in a CHL class. I don't go to a range that often, but when I do, I usually ask for the far right hand lane based on what I've observed on the firing line from fellow shooters.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Including a CHL class? Granted I haven't been to too many CHL classes, but I've seen more unsafe behavior at the range than I have in a CHL class. I don't go to a range that often, but when I do, I usually ask for the far right hand lane based on what I've observed on the firing line from fellow shooters.

    As an Instructor I have been muzzled, redirected muzzles away from other shooters, had NDs ( we have to report those to DPS) etc.
     

    M. Sage

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    Having seen how people handle their firearms at a CHL class, if I'm ever on the range for a CHL class again as a student, I'm going to wear body armor. Might even opt for the helmet, too. :p

    I "got to" help out on the line because I'd pre-shot my qual. I had to stop a guy who'd already cut his thumb with his slide before he did it again. Then he tries to turn around to look at me while I'm talking to him, so I reached out, his wrist in my hand and held the gun downrange.

    Some real brain donors out there...
     

    wakal

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    I'd think you were a blow hard who's trying to be tacticool.

    Yep.

    On certain weekends, I'll run through four hundred or so shooters in high stress, movement oriented exercises with full power firearms run at the maximum speed of the shooter and/or the firearm platform. Maintain positive control of the personnel of whose safety you have been entrusted (including your own)...

    No armor required.

    I understand wearing body armor when training cops; I maintain high-end sets of armor for just such eventualities. Cops tend to be spectacularly unsafe and "cop" an attitude when their complete lack of safety is pointed out to them, at least in my decades of experience training with various departments local, state, and federal as well as working with non-cop civilians and military of various services and countries.

    That is just my experience, though :)


    Alex
     

    Richardito

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    Some people might be scared. But myself, as a Marine, I've seen accidents in the field/range that changed people's life forever. I've also seen too many people in the firing range doing stupid things so now I intentionally act as a backup RO and check others when the RO is busy. During the firing phase when my wife was taking her CHL I saw a lady 2 lanes to her left turning her gun and looking directly down the barrel. I was talking to a friend behind them and we immediatedly dropped to the floor when we noticed what was going on. She either ran out of bullets or had a jam, etc. so she decided to look down the barrel to diagnose what was happening! Some people just shouldn't be shooting at all...
     

    Mreed911

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    Stupidity can happen in the blink of an eye and change everything forever.

    During a police shotgun qualification course in my academy I witnessed a female officer get tackled on the range as the barrel of her loaded (mid-course-of-fire) 12ga swung well past her 90-degree line towards the group of us waiting to test. I remember one RO looking to the other and saying "What do I do now?" while he was on top of her, holding the barrel of the shotgun in a safe direction. The answer? "I don't know, pig-**** her?"

    To this day I remember that... if only because you couldn't say that now without someone getting offended, suing and passing despite their incompetence. To be fair, though, she learned her lesson, at least insofar as the range rules.
     

    F350-6

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    As an Instructor I have been muzzled, redirected muzzles away from other shooters, had NDs ( we have to report those to DPS) etc.

    I have absolutely no doubt about that. That's why I mentioned the perspective of a visible vest from the other end. Based on your statement, a vest for you, and everyone else in the room might be a good idea.

    I'm assuming you do not provide a vest for the students taking your class even though they get sweeped or worse during your class.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I have absolutely no doubt about that. That's why I mentioned the perspective of a visible vest from the other end. Based on your statement, a vest for you, and everyone else in the room might be a good idea.

    I'm assuming you do not provide a vest for the students taking your class even though they get sweeped or worse during your class.

    That is correct. If you would like to donate.....
     

    TheDan

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    If it's concealed, how would the student know?
    Because concealed vests look like you're wearing a torso sized maxipad under your shirt :laughing:



    Remember in school when the teacher would ask if you brough enough gum for the whole class if you were caught with gum? Same goes for a vest if it's noticeable. As a student, I'd expect you to have one for everyone in the class or not wear one yourself.
    Even in grade-school I thought that was an asinine line of reasoning. If you wanted gum, you should have thought to bring some to class with you. I shouldn't be punished for your lack of foresight. Get your own gum, you communist!



    That is just my experience, though
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    HillRider

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    I have absolutely no doubt about that. That's why I mentioned the perspective of a visible vest from the other end. Based on your statement, a vest for you, and everyone else in the room might be a good idea.

    I'm assuming you do not provide a vest for the students taking your class even though they get sweeped or worse during your class.

    +1 I think blaming the students is a cop out. How unsafe is your class? You can still die if shot wearing body armor.
     
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