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Instructors Wearing Body Armor during CHL and Pistol Courses

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  • V-Tach

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    As an instructor do you wear body armor while instructing live fire on the pistol range?

    I also want to hear from a Student's perspective on what do you think of Instructors wearing body armor during live fire and proficiency on the range?

    I usually wear a level IIA concealable vest during live fire with students on the range, but have started wearing level IIIA. My Son wears level III ceramic plates (He is an Instructor also).

    Does it send a negative image/message to the Students?.

    Please discuss......
    Lynx Defense
     

    Koinonia

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    Definitely. At a minimum level 2a. I dont trust most people i shoot next to in classes. Id rather have broken ribs then a sucking chest wound.

    That, and most of the stuff they've got now is concealable.
     

    robocop10mm

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    It is a very good idea. I have worn armor in the range for 15 years. Our agency policy is ALL personnel shall wear body armor on the range, period.
     

    Big Phil

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    I wouldn't blame them, the law of averages would say the more you're around fire arms being fired the more likely you are to be shot.

    In addition I've heard multiple stories of new shooters being unbelievable safe. Heck I was close to being shot at the range!
     

    txinvestigator

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    For CHL I been known to wear concealed body armor. I have had more than one student turn around and point a gun at me.

    In advanced classes where we move and shoot, turn, etc I wear armor. I have been to classes where we conducted two man tactics and very dynamic training and BA is mandatory.

    I wear BA during guard classes.
     

    karlac

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    From a student's perspective (of just a few months ago), and due to exposure inherent in a "training" environment, absolutely no problem with it, nor do I believe it should even raise an eyebrow. Witnessed more ND's/unsafe incidents on a well run Army range in an early training than I saw in a combat unit.

    You have every right to protect yourself against that split second that can potentially change a life forever.
     

    stdreb27

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    My initial response was.

    I'd think you were a blow hard who's trying to be tacticool.

    But these posts previous to me raise a good point, that I haven't considered till now.

    So I guess it would depend on the instructor's demeanor and qualifications.
     

    Byrd666

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    During my CHL class, my instructor did not wear any BA. Then again we were all experienced shooters and most of us had a military background as well. And honestly, never having really thought about it before, but it would make sense to me that the instructor DID wear BA. With all the inexperienced shooters literally firing a weapon for the first time, and not knowing range rules, safety and etiquette. Let alone how the weapon of choice actually works, I'd be surprised if more and more instructors didn't wear some kind of BA. Stupidity can happen in the blink of an eye and change everything forever.
     
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    Green Eye Tactical

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    For training I would run in the Army, we were usually assuming a bit of risk to meet the mission requirement. To mitigate it, armor was usually in order.

    Now, as for the specific question the OP asked- Live fire on a pistol range: being a short barreled weapon, the pistol is one of the most dangerous weapons to instruct on (other than a breaching shotgun). When I'm teaching civilians, I tend to lean towards the mentality of that if your training is so dangerous or you are unable to implement enough control measures- you may need to rethink the training. I will usually do things on the range like: adjust the number on the line, limit access to firearms, and/or re-organize the firers so that the ones that need more supervision are grouped together. Another control measure that any instructor should do is not move on to the next task until the previous can be done repeatedly and safely. I.E.: Dry fire until safety, muzzle, and trigger finger awareness can be demonstrated.
     

    txinvestigator

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    For training I would run in the Army, we were usually assuming a bit of risk to meet the mission requirement. To mitigate it, armor was usually in order.

    Now, as for the specific question the OP asked- Live fire on a pistol range: being a short barreled weapon, the pistol is one of the most dangerous weapons to instruct on (other than a breaching shotgun). When I'm teaching civilians, I tend to lean towards the mentality of that if your training is so dangerous or you are unable to implement enough control measures- you may need to rethink the training. I will usually do things on the range like: adjust the number on the line, limit access to firearms, and/or re-organize the firers so that the ones that need more supervision are grouped together. Another control measure that any instructor should do is not move on to the next task until the previous can be done repeatedly and safely. I.E.: Dry fire until safety, muzzle, and trigger finger awareness can be demonstrated.

    Do you conduct CHL qualifications?
     

    F350-6

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    My initial response was.

    I'd think you were a blow hard who's trying to be tacticool.

    But these posts previous to me raise a good point, that I haven't considered till now.

    So I guess it would depend on the instructor's demeanor and qualifications.

    Tacticool was my first thought as well, but I wasn't thinking about concealed armor.

    If it's concealed, how would the student know? If it's an exterior vest, I'd figure you were either trying to be tacticool or you were just expecting a very unsafe environment and didn't care about the rest of us. Remember in school when the teacher would ask if you brough enough gum for the whole class if you were caught with gum? Same goes for a vest if it's noticeable. As a student, I'd expect you to have one for everyone in the class or not wear one yourself.

    If it's concealed, I wouldn't know and obviously wouldn't care.
     

    stdreb27

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    Tacticool was my first thought as well, but I wasn't thinking about concealed armor.

    If it's concealed, how would the student know? If it's an exterior vest, I'd figure you were either trying to be tacticool or you were just expecting a very unsafe environment and didn't care about the rest of us. Remember in school when the teacher would ask if you brough enough gum for the whole class if you were caught with gum? Same goes for a vest if it's noticeable. As a student, I'd expect you to have one for everyone in the class or not wear one yourself.

    If it's concealed, I wouldn't know and obviously wouldn't care.

    The chl class I took, the guy showed up in a black fishing shirt with his logo in it (no problem with that) but he also had all these meaningless patches. Looked ridiculous.
    His company teaches different self defense type stuff from martial arts to guns. But my impression was, he had no actual experience. Other than a fond interest in combat. (Not that I'm much different, but I don't own a self defense school)

    Anyway, i am of the train of thought that you do, then when you get done you teach from experience. So any "expertise" from this guy is theoretical. Wouldn't surprise me if he'd shown up with external body armor. Now I don't wanna criticize him. Because I do like him. But there was a lot of information presented as if he was THE authority, and well it was just out of books. And it wasn't anything even really wrong.

    On the flip side, my cousin owns a marksmanship school. He just shows up and starts talking, in 2 minutes I learned more than I've ever even imagined. But he's been there, come back taught it to people going there as a Civilian contractor. Decided to get closer to home. He doesn't wear anything. And he's doing all sorts of moving when shooting.

    But he's the type that doesn't need to sell. Just folds his arms and growls. And you know it...
     

    txinvestigator

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    Nope, not interested in doing them either.

    I do. Your theory about dry fire, etc does not work there.

    Also, I have trained with some fine schools. When shooting in two man teams in close proximity, making stationary and moving turns, shooting on the move, etc., body armor is prudent. Regardless of how many dry fire exercises you conduct, accidents can happen. I DO agree that when adding drills and techniques slow and dry until comfortable and competent is critical.
     

    Mexican_Hippie

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    My perspective is that it's a good idea. I would think that the instructor is safety oriented.

    I would actually prefer if they were issued to everyone in training classes but I know that it's a big expense.
     

    Green Eye Tactical

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    I do. Your theory about dry fire, etc does not work there.

    Also, I have trained with some fine schools. When shooting in two man teams in close proximity, making stationary and moving turns, shooting on the move, etc., body armor is prudent. Regardless of how many dry fire exercises you conduct, accidents can happen. I DO agree that when adding drills and techniques slow and dry until comfortable and competent is critical.

    Not a theory regarding dry fire.
    Even for prospective Operators going through the training course for my former Unit- the same progression was used. It didn't matter how many years you had in SF, Infantry, or Battalion- you weren't going hot until you could demonstrate safety and awareness dry. This is one of my biggest beefs with the industry today. There are a lot of guys running courses that progress way too fast in order to keep the clients happy and money coming in.

    I am aware that it doesn't work for CHL classes, since it isn't a training course (with regards to shooting). Also one of the reasons, other than the constitutionality of it, that I'm not interested.

    Stationary, moving turns, and shooting on the move can be done very safely without body armor. I ran a schoolhouse over in Dubai for 3 years, pushing teenage kids through a shooting package that did this. 200 students every month for 3 years. No incidents. Thats's why I stand by ensuring I have progressive control measures every course. Never place the client in a situation where they will have an accident- something I strive for.

    As far as the close proximity- the risk assessment and mitigation process still applies. If we are talking about more advanced shooting, which I'm not sure this was the topic here, like CQB- then yeah we aren't talking about Lvl2 BA. We're talking about plates and helmets for students as well as instructors.
     

    TXDARKHORSE361

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    I've got no problem with it, when I took my CHL class the instructor had on a visible vest, just a solid black police style and I believe it said instructor on the back. You take a big risk anytime you step into an area where firearms are being handled so why not take any precautions you deem necessary. I personally don't feel the need to strap one on when I hit the range but I would probably feel different if I was an instructor, it really comes down to personal preference just like anything else.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Not a theory regarding dry fire.
    Even for prospective Operators going through the training course for my former Unit- the same progression was used. It didn't matter how many years you had in SF, Infantry, or Battalion- you weren't going hot until you could demonstrate safety and awareness dry. This is one of my biggest beefs with the industry today. There are a lot of guys running courses that progress way too fast in order to keep the clients happy and money coming in.
    I agree with you 100%.
    I am aware that it doesn't work for CHL classes, since it isn't a training course (with regards to shooting). Also one of the reasons, other than the constitutionality of it, that I'm not interested.
    It certainly is not for everyone. ;)

    Stationary, moving turns, and shooting on the move can be done very safely without body armor. I ran a schoolhouse over in Dubai for 3 years, pushing teenage kids through a shooting package that did this. 200 students every month for 3 years. No incidents. Thats's why I stand by ensuring I have progressive control measures every course. Never place the client in a situation where they will have an accident- something I strive for.
    Here is where you and I diverge. Body armor is prudent. You cannot control all of the variables. Someones foot gets stuck on a turn, falls and presses off a round. I am walking with my partner unholstered behind me. I am wearing BA.

    As far as the close proximity- the risk assessment and mitigation process still applies. If we are talking about more advanced shooting, which I'm not sure this was the topic here, like CQB- then yeah we aren't talking about Lvl2 BA. We're talking about plates and helmets for students as well as instructors.

    I agree here as well. However, I believe there is a middle ground between nothing and plates and helmets.
     

    Green Eye Tactical

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    I agree with you 100%.
    It certainly is not for everyone. ;)

    Here is where you and I diverge. Body armor is prudent. You cannot control all of the variables. Someones foot gets stuck on a turn, falls and presses off a round. I am walking with my partner unholstered behind me. I am wearing BA.



    I agree here as well. However, I believe there is a middle ground between nothing and plates and helmets.

    This post is proof I need to dry fire multi-quotes before going hot

    There may be some mis-communication here. When I say turns and movements- I am talking about a controlled firing line. If you are talking team movements with short barreled weapons, that falls into the CQB arena and I would mandate plates and helmets- not soft stuff.

    As far as the foot stuck issue- the consistency of the ground on the range is a primary consideration as to whether the training happens or not. And unless you're doing some silly techniques that I had some Australian SAS guys try to sell me on overseas, you should have no more risk falling over doing turns than you would standing.
     
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