APOD Firearms

Is the defense shortgun still relevant?

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  • zackmars

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    ZX9RCAM,

    IF he was NOT disagreeing with my post, what exactly do you believe that his post was meant to say??

    yours, satx

    That shotguns still require aim in order to get good hits, and that what you are talking about was not mentioned in the post you quoted.

    I will admit i didn't quite fully understand your post at first, so maybe I'm way off.
     

    MrOrangeVest

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    Actually, my earlier comment was more about controlling the firearm. It doesn't matter how great I may be with whatever caliber if I need to have somebody else shoot it. I'm looking at ease of use.

    My gun safe is not unlimited in capacity and the tools therein must be versatile for not only myself. For instance, it is generally accepted that 9mm is easier to control than .40 and other larger calibers and I have seen firsthand the difference among my potential pool of shooters. I made the (controversial) choice to "downgrade" as some might say (before the FBI made it cool. :shades:)

    In like fashion, an AR platform is easier to control than a 12ga shotgun. Both require training to gain proficiency and yes, they both need to be aimed since it was brought up. (Not what my original comment was about) For my pool of shooters, a shotgun won't be making a front line appearance any time soon.
     

    MrOrangeVest

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    My last "bird hunt" was a flight line detail clearing birds nearly 20 years ago. I watched an Air Force E6 miss a wounded bird on the ground by a foot at a range of about one yard after listening to their lecture about how you didn't need to aim a shotgun. :banghead:
     

    MrOrangeVest

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    ...
    1. I was "once upon a time, long ago" generally "considered to be" a good shot with pistol, rifles, riot-gun, smg & machine gun (before my eyes started going bad)
    2. That over 75% of "home invasion intrusions" occur "in periods of darkness"
    AND
    3. Pistols & long arms (other than shotguns, firing shot) require "precision sighting",

    HOW exactly do you believe that you or anyone else can defend home & hearth in the dark W/O the ability to see the SIGHTS??
    Since you asked, here a bit of my thinking. I make no claims of being anybody that should be listened to either. I experiment and see what works well for me. Typically I lurk and try to pick up on things from the more experienced in the crowd.

    Long guns such as rifles, PCCs, and shotguns are far easier than handguns to be consistently accurate. When it comes to handguns I tell people that I train twice as hard to be half as good as with a long gun. They are convenient and concealable.

    Darkness is a very common factor in defensive shootings and I have been experimenting with lights and optics.

    Weapon lights seem to correspond well with where I am aimimg/hitting. Practice is a must.

    Optics can make things fast and easy, but I'm also hesitant to embrace technology that could fail. Sights using tritium are lower tech but not infallible.

    In the end, I can only hope that something I learn or practice will be applicable in the unfortunate event of needing such methods or tools.
     

    Axxe55

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    Anyone that tries to tell someone that a shotgun doesn't need to be aimed, is an idiot. They don't require as much precision aiming as most pistols or rifles, but still they do need to be aimed.

    A pattern, rather than a group is much more forgiving with a shotgun. If I aim center mass with a 12 gauge, and hit the intruder or attacker in the shoulder instead, it will still do massive amounts of damage to that person.

    This part of the reason for my preferences of shotguns for home defensive weapons.
     

    popo22

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    Anyone that tries to tell someone that a shotgun doesn't need to be aimed, is an idiot. They don't require as much precision aiming as most pistols or rifles, but still they do need to be aimed.

    A pattern, rather than a group is much more forgiving with a shotgun. If I aim center mass with a 12 gauge, and hit the intruder or attacker in the shoulder instead, it will still do massive amounts of damage to that person.

    This part of the reason for my preferences of shotguns for home defensive weapons. "

    ^^^Exactly, In the heat of a defensive moment a lot of things can happen (including short-comings on my own part)flinching, etc. If I hit a target in the shoulder/chest (off center) with a 20 or 12 ga shotgun (at most residential room distances, 3 to 10 yards) , it is normally going to be much more devastating than a similar strike with an AR15 or handgun single round. If the "hit" is in the optimal spot ("CNC", head shot etc.) it will matter little, but that is not usually what happens with "less-trained" people with their adrenaline racing.
     

    Axxe55

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    "
    Anyone that tries to tell someone that a shotgun doesn't need to be aimed, is an idiot. They don't require as much precision aiming as most pistols or rifles, but still they do need to be aimed.

    A pattern, rather than a group is much more forgiving with a shotgun. If I aim center mass with a 12 gauge, and hit the intruder or attacker in the shoulder instead, it will still do massive amounts of damage to that person.

    This part of the reason for my preferences of shotguns for home defensive weapons. "

    ^^^Exactly, In the heat of a defensive moment a lot of things can happen (including short-comings on my own part)flinching, etc. If I hit a target in the shoulder/chest (off center) with a 20 or 12 ga shotgun (at most residential room distances, 3 to 10 yards) , it is normally going to be much more devastating than a similar strike with an AR15 or handgun single round. If the "hit" is in the optimal spot ("CNC", head shot etc.) it will matter little, but that is not usually what happens with "less-trained" people with their adrenaline racing.

    Totally agree. IMO the 12 or 20 gauge shotgun is a very forgiving self defense weapon for the home. I also consider the shotgun to be a very versatile weapon suited for many purposes outside of just home defense.

    Everyone needs to assess their needs and specific requirements to determine if the shogun is best suited for their needs in a self defensive weapon of the home.
     

    satx78247

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    popo22,

    Then you may call me "an idiot", as I'm a long-serving "BLACK HAT"/member of the USAMPS Weapons Committee & KNOW that the US military forces DOES NOT have (and NEVER has had) a "qualification test" of ANY sort for SHOTGUNS but DO have such "graded tests" for ever other individual/crew-served weapon up to & including the .50 Caliber M2 HMG. = Instead, those of us who train(ed) Skill Levels 1-3 are perfectly aware that shotguns are NOT aimed, but rather are POINTED at the target.
    ("Disbelievers" may TRY to "spin" that FACT, in any way that they choose, but such persons are FACTUALLY 100% WRONG.)

    ADDENDA: I once also was a "Tac" for SNCOES & at SL3, we actually used to teach instinct shooting with the riot-gun "during periods of limited visibility", i.e., after EENT& before BMNT. = MOST Military Police NCOES students quickly learned "to score hits" out to 25-30M with the 12 gauge riot-shotgun (using 00 buckshot), even when the target was NOT visible.

    yours, satx
    USAMPR, Retired
     
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    Analog Kid

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    In defense mode, shotguns are for close encounters.. I would never fire one in my house.. that's what my pistol(s) are for. I agree with Axxe55 that one should choose the tool that is best for the job and best for the individual. After shooting no less than 10,000 handgun rounds at the range, I am most comfortable with a pistol for all my defensive needs. I shoot shotguns just to blow the shit out of stuff for fun. too long, too heavy, and too cumbersome to carry around for EDC. ymmv.
     

    satx78247

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    In defense mode, shotguns are for close encounters.. I would never fire one in my house.. that's what my pistol(s) are for. I agree with Axxe55 that one should choose the tool that is best for the job and best for the individual. After shooting no less than 10,000 handgun rounds at the range, I am most comfortable with a pistol for all my defensive needs. I shoot shotguns just to blow the shit out of stuff for fun. too long, too heavy, and too cumbersome to carry around for EDC. ymmv.

    Analog Kid,

    Personally, I think of my EDC as a "means to get to a longarm" & little more than that.

    just my OPINION, satx
     

    Axxe55

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    In defense mode, shotguns are for close encounters.. I would never fire one in my house.. that's what my pistol(s) are for. I agree with Axxe55 that one should choose the tool that is best for the job and best for the individual. After shooting no less than 10,000 handgun rounds at the range, I am most comfortable with a pistol for all my defensive needs. I shoot shotguns just to blow the shit out of stuff for fun. too long, too heavy, and too cumbersome to carry around for EDC. ymmv.

    Exactly. I chose a shotgun based on my or our, specific needs and circumstances, not someone else's. And I also know that my choices and options may not be the best for others, or that others have the same options as I do.

    I usually suggest the shotgun for most as an option they should explore for themselves to see if that is the best choice for their home defensive weapons choice. In the end, only that person can make the final decision if it's the best option for them.

    The decisions I made for our options are based not on just myself, but for my wife as well. She knows how to shoot a pump shotgun, so in the time of a break-in, I don't have to wonder if she knows how to operate that shotgun. It's loaded with #4 birdshot. That's a matter of dealing with recoil for her. Not that she couldn't or wouldn't in a time of stress be able to handle it, but my thinking is hits on target. More recoil of buckshot could lessen hits on target. I'd rather she had all hits with birdshot, than misses with buckshot. I have more than a few question that decision in the past, but this home isn't their concern to worry about defending. So I don't and won't base my decisions on what other people think I should, or shouldn't do.

    My wife can and does shoot and carry a pistol. But I trust her for being able to defend the home if needed more so with a shotgun than a pistol.
     

    MrOrangeVest

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    ... US military forces DOES NOT have (and NEVER has had) a "qualification test" of ANY sort for SHOTGUNS but DO have such "graded tests" for ever other individual/crew-served weapon ...
    Not sure I agree with this statement.

    In 2003 I participated in a shotgun qualification course jointly with the USAF. They definitely had a qualification standard based on scoring hits on targets at various ranges and those unable to meet the standard were not qualified/allowed to carry the shotgun for SP duty.

    Now I only ever did it the one time with the Air Force and my Army duties never put a shotgun in my hands, so I can't claim anything beyond my experience.
     

    satx78247

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    Not sure I agree with this statement.

    In 2003 I participated in a shotgun qualification course jointly with the USAF. They definitely had a qualification standard based on scoring hits on targets at various ranges and those unable to meet the standard were not qualified/allowed to carry the shotgun for SP duty.

    Now I only ever did it the one time with the Air Force and my Army duties never put a shotgun in my hands, so I can't claim anything beyond my experience.

    MrOrangeVest,

    UNLESS the USAF has changed their procedures since I retired the USAF also only "familiarizes" their SP personnel with the shotgun. = Scored only as PASS or FAIL.

    FYI, since the USAF became their own service, USAMPS has always trained the Air Police (now called the AF Security Police), just as we also train the Marine & Navy security/LE personnel.
    (NCIS, as they are a CIVILIANIZED group, are NOT trained by USAMPS. - NCIS is trained at FLETC.)

    yours, satx
     

    leVieux

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    MeOrangeVest,

    Given that:

    1. I was "once upon a time, long ago" generally "considered to be" a good shot with pistol, rifles, riot-gun, smg & machine gun (before my eyes started going bad)
    2. That over 75% of "home invasion intrusions" occur "in periods of darkness"
    AND
    3. Pistols & long arms (other than shotguns, firing shot) require "precision sighting",

    HOW exactly do you believe that you or anyone else can defend home & hearth in the dark W/O the ability to see the SIGHTS??

    SORRY, but I'm NOT buying any.

    yours, satx

    AMEN !
     

    MrOrangeVest

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    MrOrangeVest,

    UNLESS the USAF has changed their procedures since I retired the USAF also only "familiarizes" their SP personnel with the shotgun. = Scored only as PASS or FAIL.

    ...

    In my limited experience with that group, the pass/ fail was based on how many holes there were in the target over the varying distance. 00 buck was used and so many holes (a specific number at each distance) were needed to be allowed to carry the shotgun and be assigned the duties that came with toting said shotgun.
     

    Axxe55

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    In my limited experience with that group, the pass/ fail was based on how many holes there were in the target over the varying distance. 00 buck was used and so many holes (a specific number at each distance) were needed to be allowed to carry the shotgun and be assigned the duties that came with toting said shotgun.

    You should never argue with an expert with his years of training. 20 lashes to your backside for such insubordination!

    :spank:
     

    satx78247

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    In my limited experience with that group, the pass/ fail was based on how many holes there were in the target over the varying distance. 00 buck was used and so many holes (a specific number at each distance) were needed to be allowed to carry the shotgun and be assigned the duties that came with toting said shotgun.


    MrOrangeVest,

    At least when I retired from AD in November 2006, "familiarization" was ONLY PASS/FAIL & consisted ONLY in IF the student could SAFELY LOAD the shotgun with 5 shotgun shells, FIRE 3 ROUNDS (while keeping the muzzle up/down range) & SAFELY UNLOAD the riot-shotgun.
    IF the student did those operations, WITHOUT doing an UNSAFE ACT, they got a PASS for the 12 gauge riot-gun..

    yours, satx
     
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