Jerry Waller's shooting and the requirement to drop a firearm on your own property

[BrenGunner]

Attempts to argue using statistics.
Statistics are proved to be not in his favor.
Resorts to statistics are faked and back to cops are cowardice goons who murder.

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[Charlie]

Wait!! ......Wait ..............

 

[HillRider]

Attempts to argue using statistics.
Statistics are proved to be not in his favor.
Resorts to statistics are faked and back to cops are cowardice goons who murder.

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Not a question of statistics.
Swat1911 is either actual swat or LE wannabe phony.
My bet is on the latter.

 

[AustinN4]

Instead of addressing the entre post, you want to fact check me like some CNN twerp.

You are the one that put a statement out there that you can't back up, just like a CNN reporter. I called you on it. Get over it.

 

[Texasjack]

The OP was actually asking a pretty interesting question about how far a cop can go as far as giving orders to a person on his/her private property.

TXI, who might have provided a good citation for this, chose to take offense and mock the OP. That pretty much took the whole thread off the rails and then it eventually became a huge trainwreck.

Some good points were raised - esp. the idea that there's a practical limit to defending your own rights. If armed and hostile cops are giving you orders, you're best course of action is probably to obey them and, if they abuse their authority, deal with the whole thing later in the cooler atmosphere of the courts. Do bear in mind that the legal system and esp. the cops tend to pull together to protect their own - even the worst of their own - so your cause may be moot.

TXI is one of those guys who thinks that cops are great and highly mistreated and disrespected, and that it's wrong to judge the many by the actions of the few. To a great degree, he's right.

On the other hand, many of us are wary of the authority of the government these days. There is no doubt in my mind that the way the government deals with the public has changed - dramatically for the worse - since I was young. In my own neighborhood, I watched a cop threaten, hassle, and nearly arrest one of the quietest, peaceful, and law-abiding couples you will ever meet. It was over a carton of eggs. (Long story and a bit OT.) Another cop stopped me because I dared to have a bumper sticker that says "Secede". Seriously. (His sergeant and I had a discussion on that.) In many of the major cities it's not unusual for criminals to crash houses and claim to be cops while they subdue the occupants and rob them.

There are legal limits on what LEOs are allowed to do, and there are good reasons for those limits. There is nothing wrong in holding them reasonably accountable. The question of how I handle that during the heat of a confrontation is legitimate. Too bad we couldn't have an adult conversation on the subject.

 

[bones_708]

You guys can argue all day long about the statistics. The fact is most cops are protected by the system so we will never know the exact level of their misconduct. Somewhere Frank Serpico is shaking his head.

You brought it up tough guy and you were full of it. Now you don't care? There is no chance that police commit crimes at a grater rate than the public. What is an issue is that even though fewer crimes are commited it is giant breach of trust that is placed upon them and it can cause even greater harm to the comminity. It is worse when a cop commits a crime. But you sir are a nut or a criminal.

Instead of addressing the entre post, you want to fact check me like some CNN twerp.

Most of what you said was stupid ranting not worth responding too and what, I should apologize for thinking some honesty is required to have a discussion? Guess that leaves you out.

Doesn't change the fact that an imbalance of power is developing and a lot of cops have a cowardice about them. They have some supposed authority to shoot regular folks down on their own property and we're suppose to kiss their asses for it.

Who asked you to kiss anyones ass? Are you sure the guy wasn't looking for a date? Because I haven't seen a hint of that on here. Heck that whole rant seems like you are projecting your own fears of the police back at them with the name calling and the down right absurd insults and lies you spout.

I'm saying that is $#@!ed up. When did Americans hand over all of their responsibilities of self defense over to some uniformed goons? Even to the point that if you are in the moral right and protecting yourself and your family, you can still get murdered by the police because they think you are the criminal.

All he had to do was leave the gun on the ground. I don't think a dang thing you said here really applies to this shooting. You jump on every LE thread and spew bile don't you? I'm sorry I'm probably keeping you from your youtube manifesto, my bad.

 

[bones_708]

There are legal limits on what LEOs are allowed to do, and there are good reasons for those limits. There is nothing wrong in holding them reasonably accountable. The question of how I handle that during the heat of a confrontation is legitimate. Too bad we couldn't have an adult conversation on the subject.

I think part of the problem is people want some line that if a cop crosses it then they can take action or refuse to comply as the case might be. The thing is everything is situational and you can't really know until it's later judged by others. On the face if an officer commands you to disarm, basicly under any circumstance, you must. Failure to do so would be an offence in and of itself. There is statute that justifies resisting a officers orders. Your only recourse is thru the legal system. If the officer is wrong he faces discipline at work, even when actions are legal, possible civil and criminal penalties if the actions are judged unlawful. Any case against you would be throw out, etc. Now this would only apply to a lawful order, like drop your gun, and not gimme your money.

 

[AustinN4]

The OP was actually asking a pretty interesting question about how far a cop can go as far as giving orders to a person on his/her private property.

Some good points were raised - esp. the idea that there's a practical limit to defending your own rights. If armed and hostile cops are giving you orders, you're best course of action is probably to obey them and, if they abuse their authority, deal with the whole thing later in the cooler atmosphere of the courts.

On the other hand, many of us are wary of the authority of the government these days. There is no doubt in my mind that the way the government deals with the public has changed - dramatically for the worse - since I was young.

There are legal limits on what LEOs are allowed to do, and there are good reasons for those limits. There is nothing wrong in holding them reasonably accountable. The question of how I handle that during the heat of a confrontation is legitimate.

All really good points!

I tried to put myself in both sets of shoes - the homeowner and the LEO. And I was sympathetic to both.

Older man, no doubt with flashlights in his eyes, receives command to disarm. But from who if he can't see them? (conjecture on my part)

LEO gives order to disarm, homeowner puts gun down, has second thoughts and pick it back up, seeming confused as to who was telling him to disarm. (last part again conjecture on my part).

LEO sees homeowner pick gun back up, feels threatened and shoots.

I can honestly see both points of view and understand why each did what they did. A really bad situation all around.