Target Sports

Jerry Waller's shooting and the requirement to drop a firearm on your own property

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Texas

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • cheez

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 29, 2013
    10
    1
    Folks- I was just reading this article about Jerry Waller's shooting by Fort Worth PD and had a question; is it an actual legal requirement in Texas that a person standing on their own property must follow the orders of a police officer to drop a firearm? I'm hoping someone is familiar with the specific statutes that would address this and can cite them. Just curious- I'm sure there is some law that says the lawful order of a peace officer overrides castle doctrine, but I'd really like to see it explained. Thanks!!
    Military Camp
     

    Younggun

    Certified Jackass
    TGT Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Jul 31, 2011
    53,617
    96
    hill co.
    Jerry Waller's shooting and the requirement to drop a firearm on your own pro...

    This should be a fun thread.
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    Folks- I was just reading this article about Jerry Waller's shooting by Fort Worth PD and had a question; is it an actual legal requirement in Texas that a person standing on their own property must follow the orders of a police officer to drop a firearm? I'm hoping someone is familiar with the specific statutes that would address this and can cite them. Just curious- I'm sure there is some law that says the lawful order of a peace officer overrides castle doctrine, but I'd really like to see it explained. Thanks!!

    If we are going to have an intelligent conversation about this, please explain the Castle Doctrine as you understand it. We need to be on the same page.
     

    cheez

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 29, 2013
    10
    1
    Ok- I simply mean the "man's home is his castle" perspective; if you are holding a weapon but not brandishing it, or otherwise threatening with it, is being told to drop it while on one's own property a lawful order that must be obeyed or you are in violation of the law? Examples abound: Being out hunting on property you lease when the ranger walks up- can he order you to drop your hunting rifle or face arrest? In your garage, like Jerry was, investigating suspicious noises, when the police un-warrantedly enter your property? I understand that when in public the order to self-disarm is a lawful one and must be obeyed, but what about on your own private property? (I know Castle Doctrine is a specific subset of law about the right to shoot an intruder- I'm not claiming you have some right to shoot the police, simply referring to it as a reason that the order to self-disarm may not be lawful or may be superseded by other laws/rights.)

    I'm really not trying to start a fight here; I'm curious. And I agree- he with the badge wins- I'm just curious what the actual law reads on the topic. Believe me, I'm not planning to disobey an armed officer who has me at gunpoint when he tells me to disarm myself, I'm just trying to find the legal line- basically, if Jerry Waller did NOT threaten the police with his weapon, did they still have a right to treat him as illegally disobeying a lawful order, or did he / do we have a right to be in possession of weapons on his / our own property that supersedes the power of the officer to make that order?
     
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 14, 2014
    114
    1
    My philosophy is simple, the man with the gun and uniform is right, until you can prove in court he isn't.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    Ok- I simply mean the "man's home is his castle" perspective; if you are holding a weapon but not brandishing it, or otherwise threatening with it, is being told to drop it while on one's own property a lawful order that must be obeyed or you are in violation of the law? Examples abound: Being out hunting on property you lease when the ranger walks up- can he order you to drop your hunting rifle or face arrest? In your garage, like Jerry was, investigating suspicious noises, when the police un-warrantedly enter your property? I understand that when in public the order to self-disarm is a lawful one and must be obeyed, but what about on your own private property? (I know Castle Doctrine is a specific subset of law about the right to shoot an intruder- I'm not claiming you have some right to shoot the police, simply referring to it as a reason that the order to self-disarm may not be lawful or may be superseded by other laws/rights.)

    I'm really not trying to start a fight here; I'm curious. And I agree- he with the badge wins- I'm just curious what the actual law reads on the topic. Believe me, I'm not planning to disobey an armed officer who has me at gunpoint when he tells me to disarm myself, I'm just trying to find the legal line- basically, if Jerry Waller did NOT threaten the police with his weapon, did they still have a right to treat him as illegally disobeying a lawful order, or did he / do we have a right to be in possession of weapons on his / our own property that supersedes the power of the officer to make that order?

    So you admit the castle doctrine has nothing to do with this, and we can drop references to it?

    And what does a warrant have to do with anything?

    Your prediposition, no, your bias is already evident.
     

    Vaquero

    Moving stuff to the gas prices thread.....
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Rating - 100%
    11   0   0
    Apr 4, 2011
    44,207
    96
    Dixie Land
    So you admit the castle doctrine has nothing to do with this, and we can drop references to it?

    And what does a warrant have to do with anything?

    Your prediposition, no, your bias is already evident.

    As is yours. I see a guy searching for answers. Nothing more nothing less. You, of all people, are in a position to provide those answers.
    Yet you scream racist and throw on the riot gear.
     

    cheez

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 29, 2013
    10
    1
    So you admit the castle doctrine has nothing to do with this, and we can drop references to it?

    And what does a warrant have to do with anything?

    Your prediposition, no, your bias is already evident.

    Ok, so drop Castle Doctrine from the topic. A warrant has to do with the intrusion by law enforcement onto private property. My predisposition is nonexistent; I am asking a question about where the line is, as defined by letter of the law and case law on the topic. Please don't try to read a bias into the question- it's simply a question. I support law enforcement and respect their service and sacrifice to our society- I am just curious about the law.
     
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 14, 2014
    114
    1
    I would think that if the officer s were responding to a call and saw a guy with a gun that eould give them probable cause.

    Remember, you msy be in your yard, in your garage doing what you may have a legal right to do, but the cops have no idea who you are. It's not going to hurt anything to puy the gun down until the facts are sorted out. Might save your life.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
     

    AustinN4

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Nov 27, 2013
    9,853
    96
    Austin
    Remember, you msy be in your yard, in your garage doing what you may have a legal right to do, but the cops have no idea who you are. It's not going to hurt anything to puy the gun down until the facts are sorted out. Might save your life.
    While I generally agree with you, if the light was in my eyes and I couldn't see who was issuing the order to disarm or even see the uniform, I might be pretty conflicted as to what to do. Sounds like the example used was - he put it down, then picked it back up if I read it correctly.
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    As is yours. I see a guy searching for answers. Nothing more nothing less. You, of all people, are in a position to provide those answers.
    Yet you scream racist and throw on the riot gear.

    Racist? Really?

    I am not screaming or throwing on anything, except my BS meter. He talks about Castle Doctrine and warrants, which have nothing to do with this case, as if those things somehow automatically make the cops wrong. Am I biased? Certainly. Towards not automatically condeming the police and making judgments without all of the information.
    Ok, so drop Castle Doctrine from the topic. A warrant has to do with the intrusion by law enforcement onto private property. My predisposition is nonexistent; I am asking a question about where the line is, as defined by letter of the law and case law on the topic. Please don't try to read a bias into the question- it's simply a question. I support law enforcement and respect their service and sacrifice to our society- I am just curious about the law.

    No warrant is needed to walk onto someone's property. Besides that, the homeowner would have no way of knowing if the police had a warrant or not.

    In Texas deadly force is never justified to resist an arrest or search, even an umlawful one. (Unless the person offers NO resistance and the officer uses more force than is necessary)

    The issue here is not lawful orders or not. It is use of force laws. If you have not read chapter 9 of the penal code, you should. Specifically 9.31 and 9.32.
     

    cheez

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 29, 2013
    10
    1
    No warrant is needed to walk onto someone's property. Besides that, the homeowner would have no way of knowing if the police had a warrant or not.

    You're right, but an officer with a warrant has greater legal leeway to enter and detain subjects subjects on private property. That's why the reference- to make it clear that in this case it was an un-warranted presence on private property- in a garage, even, which is generally considered part of the residence.

    In Texas deadly force is never justified to resist an arrest or search, even an umlawful one. (Unless the person offers NO resistance and the officer uses more force than is necessary)

    The issue here is not lawful orders or not. It is use of force laws. If you have not read chapter 9 of the penal code, you should. Specifically 9.31 and 9.32.

    Nobody has mentioned using deadly force for any reason, only whether or not the order from an un-warranted officer (with probable cause) to a citizen that is not acting in a threatening manner to self-disarm on private property overrides the right to be armed on private property as per the letter of the law. I don't see anything pertinent in 9.31 or .32.
     

    benenglish

    Just Another Boomer
    Staff member
    Lifetime Member
    Admin
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Nov 22, 2011
    23,933
    96
    Spring
    I love parsing words and dancing on the head of a pin as much as anyone and far more than most but, even for a guy like me, the original question is meaningless. Some things in life are just practical realities and in those realities, at those particular times, the wording of any penal code is, likewise, completely meaningless.

    I can't imagine actually trying to find a legal justification to get myself shot.
     

    bones_708

    Well-Known
    BANNED!!!
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 24, 2013
    1,301
    21
    What are you trying to ask? Can they take you to jail if you don't disarm? Yes in that situation every time. Will you get convicted? Depends. If they shoot you would it be legal? Most likely it would. There isn't a hard and fast line and there isn't supposed to be one. You don't have to commit some crime or be a true risk, if it is reasonable for the officers to perceive you as one then their actions are legal. Of course many will then say that THEY don't think it is reasonable. What you think doesn't matter. It is the officers belief that matters. And as you can tell from what should be a friendly forum, most people think regardless of where you are when a cop tells you to put down a gun you should.
     

    cheez

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 29, 2013
    10
    1
    What are you trying to ask? Can they take you to jail if you don't disarm? Yes in that situation every time. Will you get convicted? Depends. If they shoot you would it be legal? Most likely it would. There isn't a hard and fast line and there isn't supposed to be one. You don't have to commit some crime or be a true risk, if it is reasonable for the officers to perceive you as one then their actions are legal. Of course many will then say that THEY don't think it is reasonable. What you think doesn't matter. It is the officers belief that matters. And as you can tell from what should be a friendly forum, most people think regardless of where you are when a cop tells you to put down a gun you should.

    I am trying to ask what the letter of the law (and applicable case law) reads- is the order to self-disarm on private property a lawful order that you can be arrested for not following, or is it an unlawful order that is superseded by other rights pertinent to being armed on private property? I realize you can and will be arrested for some other reason if you don't; I'm asking if not doing so is in itself a violation of the law.

    Ya'll can call it 'parsing words' or 'dancing on the head of a pin' but it's a pretty straightforward question and should have a pretty straightforward answer- it is either legal or not legal to refuse to self-disarm while on private property. Yes, as indicated elsewhere, I expect it might get you shot to refuse- that's not the question, though- it's solely about legality and curiosity.
     
    Top Bottom