Just had my WWII hero Dad's TRW M14NM retirement gift rifle confiscated by ATF

[Axxe55]

Thank you and your family for their service to our country. What they are putting you through is wrong in so many ways!
l am not computer literate enough to do it for you but you need to set up a Go Fund Me page to pay for your legal bills. If you can get one set up, post the details here on TGT and I’ll pony up some $’s to help.

OP hasn't been back since starting the thread. I have suspicion he might not be back. Time will tell.

 

[baboon]

OP hasn't been back since starting the thread. I have suspicion he might not be back. Time will tell.

Kind of hard when you come looking for sympathy for doing such a bonehead thing. Then again getting caught with it might have proved even worse for someone like that!

 

[Axxe55]

Kind of hard when you come looking for sympathy for doing such a bonehead thing. Then again getting caught with it might have proved even worse for someone like that!

Not being as familiar with that specific model, as best I could determine it was never built to be fully auto, nor was even capable being modified to be fully auto.

I may be incorrect about that though.

 

[baboon]

Not being as familiar with that specific model, as best I could determine it was never built to be fully auto, nor was even capable being modified to be fully auto.

I may be incorrect about that though.

Eli mentioned the rear lug that could be machined to except the parts. Moonpie and I were recently talking about some M-14 a guy had for DCMP. The fact they were loaned was why Uncle Sugar wanted them back! That all came about when the military need M-14’s and had gave them to other countries. Yet FJB gave all that gear to the telli tubbinan!

 

[Axxe55]

Eli mentioned the rear lug that could be machined to except the parts. Moonpie and I were recently talking about some M-14 a guy had for DCMP. The fact they were loaned was why Uncle Sugar wanted them back! That all came about when the military need M-14’s and had gave them to other countries. Yet FJB gave all that gear to the telli tubbinan!

A lot of confusion about that receiver. OP says it can't, and Eli says it can be because of the rear lug. I have only owned the M1A, so I can't say one way or the other.

 

[baboon]

Perhaps he should have filed for a FOIA on it!! If you found gold would you run your mouth?

 

[Axxe55]

Perhaps he should have filed for a FOIA on it!! If you found gold would you run your mouth?

Not a whisper! I'd bury it in the back yard and keep my mouth shut.

 

[baboon]

Years back someone started remodeling a house back home & found a Thompson with drums & ammo in a wall. Considering its closeness to Chicago it could haver very well been a gangsters gun. Ammo dates were correct for the time frame.

Well dumbass contacted the sheriff who "confiscated it for the Department"! well seeing as people just can't STFU word got out. Little did the dumbass sheriff know and eventually BATFE took it away from him. Very good chance that sheriff would have helped himself to it once out of office.

 

[Tomatosplat]

I am a Vietnam vet. My dad was a WWII D-Day 29th Inf hero. He was a career senior army nco and retired at Ft Hood where he died from a car accident in the late 1970s. He had a TRW M14NM that he gave to my brother, Dad got it under AR920-25 (attached) which is still to this day referenced in "The Code of Federal Regulations" (scroll to bottom of this page)

eCFR :: 32 CFR Part 623 -- Loan of Army Materiel

www.ecfr.gov

My gun was made in a batch of 4,874 new M14NM rifles TRW manufactured in 1964. It was NEVER automatic capable as the attached letter from TRW attests.

If you will read the judges brief from the lawsuit, (attached) the judge never refers to the rifle in question as an M14 in fact he always references it as the "NM" He also makes a very clear the distinction between a M14 and an M14NM earlier in the brief.

There have been a few confiscations of M14 rifles in the past but mine is unique. It is only 700 serial numbers from the one in the (attached) lawsuit and is one of the "M14NM" built by TRW specifically for DCM (Department of Civilian Marksmanship)

M14NM even caries a different National stock number (see AR920-25)

My brother died of covid earlier this year and I got the TRW M14NM. My attorney advised me to notify ATF so there would be no doubt of the legality of it.

I notified them on May 19. I felt that even if they ruled it was a machine gun I would be best off if I had an 07 FFL so I applied, was interviewed and got it in the mail on Saturday 8/23. I sent ATF an email that day. FIRST THING MONDAY AFTER A FOUR MONTH WAIT:


Good morning Mr. XXXXX I apologize for the late reply. I have received information back from our Firearms and Technology Division (FATD) regarding your M14NM. The TRW M14 NM in question is a “machinegun” and “firearm” under the NFA. As you did not manufacture the firearm while possessing an 07 FFL with current SOT, under 18 U.S.C. 922(o) it is contraband. It is FATD’s view that this is a “machinegun” because it is readily restorable.



In U.S. v. One Harrington, 378 F.3d at 534, the Sixth Circuit found that the ATF's analysis was thorough, its reasoning valid, and its decision consistent with earlier pronouncements; therefore, it found that the classification of the receiver was not arbitrary, capricious or an abuse of discretion. Similarly, in U. S. v. One TRW Model M14, 294 F.Supp.2d at 901-902, the district court concluded that the ATF's classifications were to be reviewed under an arbitrary and capricious or abuse of discretion standard, and that the ATF' s classification of the M-14 as a "machinegun" had not been shown to be arbitrary. Likewise, in U.S. v. One TRW U.S. Rife Model 14, no. CV-02-264-TUC-RCC, (D.Az. 2004) (unpublished), the district court applied the arbitrary and capricious standard to the ATF's classification of the M-14 receiver as a "machinegun" and concluded that it did not abuse its discretion in making that determination.



Firearms not lawfully registered as required by the NFA may not be registered and legitimized by their possessors. They are contraband and unlawful to possess. You can make arrangements with your local ATF office to dispose of the item.



So I sent him the above information and they had Waco ATF contact me and two very nice young special agents confiscated it on 9/9/2021.

Found an attorney, he thinks we are in the right and can get it back. His fee? $20,000 up front.

I am retired and live off SS and 100% VA disability. I had a meeting with my family, we are going to borrow the money. When we win we will sell the rifle.

(Did I mention, it is also electro-penciled M21 on the heel, it was at one time a Vietnam sniper rifle.)

The ATF is WRONG!!!!!

What state do you live in, and which U.S. district court is this foled under? This is important information

 

[66vette]

My gun was made in a batch of 4,874 new M14NM rifles TRW manufactured in 1964. It was NEVER automatic capable as the attached letter from TRW attests.

Wrong.............
All military contract M-14's were capable of full auto fire, including the NM.
TRW. SA, H&R & Winchester.

The TRW NM rifles had a dummy selector knob spot welded in the "SEMI AUTO" position to prevent full auto fire.
That's the only difference.
Your own pic proves that.
Also see the USGI DOC below.
Your other pic also shows the milled slot for the connector rod.

Firearms not lawfully registered as required by the NFA may not be registered and legitimized by their possessors. They are contraband and unlawful to possess. You can make arrangements with your local ATF office to dispose of the item.

Unfortunately that's very true but, it will not be destroyed.
It will rest in the BATFE vault (yes they have one) with other rare firearms that were confiscated over the years.
A must see video is on You-tube.

(Did I mention, it is also electro-penciled M21 on the heel, it was at one time a Vietnam sniper rifle.)

The ATF is WRONG!!!!!

None of the TRW NM rifles were stenciled with M-21.
There was no need as the NM designation set it apart from std M-14"s
Also, only 1 or 2 TRW NM rifles were used in Vietnam (according to an expert I know).

You should have contacted a real lawyer instead of some lousy lawyer who stiffed you so you can pay their extortion fees just to make them $$$$
You should have contacted Warbirds Custom Guns as he was the last M-14 armorer out of Fort Benning & he's still alive. He has built M-14's all his life & knows more about them than anyone else I know.
He's also a friend of Lee Emerson & is included in the book M14 Rifle History and Development.

Here's some interesting pics.

 

[Axxe55]

Sadly, I have the feeling the OP isn't going to return, for whatever reasons.

 

[Tnhawk]

Sadly, I have the feeling the OP isn't going to return, for whatever reasons.

He should have known once you open the ATF box you can't put the demons back in it.

 

[Axxe55]

He should have known once you open the ATF box you can't put the demons back in it.

Exactly. A federal agency that with it's bureaucrats proclaim that a "bump-stock" makes a gun into a machine gun, and brace makes one an SBR.

 

[Tnhawk]

Exactly. A federal agency that with it's bureaucrats proclaim that a "bump-stock" makes a gun into a machine gun, and brace makes one an SBR.

As an Atty said years ago, "There aren't many deaf mutes in prison". I would never consider asking any alphabet agency a question. Any information they gain from you will be used against you.

 

[Axxe55]

As an Atty said years ago, "There aren't many deaf mutes in prison". I would never consider asking any alphabet agency a question. Any information they gain from you will be used against you.

That would be my general opinion as well.

 

[SQLGeek]

As an Atty said years ago, "There aren't many deaf mutes in prison". I would never consider asking any alphabet agency a question. Any information they gain from you will be used against you.

As the saying goes, don't invite The Man into your life.

 

[baboon]

As the saying goes, don't invite The Man into your life.

Why are you assigning gender to agents of the federal government? Your assumption is downright bigoted & hateful.

They of FJB new rainbow gender squad will have you on the news for the next month!

 

[SQLGeek]

The (Wo)Mxn.

Better?

 

[V-Tach]

The OP may not have an update to give......he is dealing with .Gov and attorneys, neither known to be in a hurry to get things done..................

 

[Tnhawk]

The (Wo)Mxn.

Better?

He- She- It (circle designation of choice)

There -fixed it