Kobe Bryant and 4 others die in heli crash

[F350-6]

Another said that the pilot climbed over 1000' to get on radar for tracking, then descended suddenly at over 5,000 ft/min just before impact. It was not clear what the reason for the rapid descent was...

Isn't 5,000 ft/min basically just 1 mph? Sounds closer to a regular landing speed to me than a rapid descent.

 

[Darkpriest667]

Isn't 5,000 ft/min basically just 1 mph? Sounds closer to a regular landing speed to me than a rapid descent.

5000 feet a minute? that's about 60mph

 

[F350-6]

5000 feet a minute? that's about 60mph

You're right. I guess that might be considered fast too. No more math after beer for me.

 

[kbaxter60]

Isn't 5,000 ft/min basically just 1 mph? Sounds closer to a regular landing speed to me than a rapid descent.

No, as @Darkpriest667 indicated, it's more like 60 mph. And it's not a typical descent rate, at least for fixed-wing aircraft. 1,000 ft/min would be a stout descent rate and typically, you might be in a descent of 400-500 ft/min for landing (depending on which phase you are in). Plus, it didn't jive with the plan to climb and get tracked on radar. I still have not heard an explanation for the rapid descent.

 

[toddnjoyce]

I’m going to geek out for a minute because I’m tired of the aviation reporting on this topic.

The vertical velocity that’s being reported of anywhere from 2k - 4K fpm isn’t unusual for a helicopter, and in controlled flight can be arrested to zero FPM without occupant injury in about one second.

Helo ops have reduced visibility (1/2mi vis) and only have to remain clear of clouds, unlike fixed wing aircraft.

I don’t like to speculate, but I expect the NTSB report will say something along the lines of “Probable cause for this accident was uncontrolled (as opposed to controlled) flight into terrain; contributing factors were weather conditions and the pilot’s lack of proficiency operating in instrument meteorological conditions, and the pilot’s aeronautical decision making.”

What I *think* and is most likely not provable, is the pilot suffered from spatial disorientation after entering instrument meteorological conditions and was unable to maintain directional control of the rotorcraft. Helos, unlike foxes wing aircraft are not inherently stable and have little tactile feedback to the pilot of the feedback forces being generated by control inputs.

What that means is that the only way a helo flies is by the pilot actively keeping the helicopter from killing him. When one loses spatial orientation, there’s only two things that can fix that: visually acquiring the horizon or the ground. Without either, the pilot falls back to an artificial horizon instrument; if the brain isn’t prepared to believe what it sees on that instrument then a delayed reaction occurs.

Spatial disorientation, known as the spins, or often (incorrectly) referred to as vertigo, induces the pilot to disbelieve what he sees, because the body is sensing something else. A deadly trick.

 

[FireInTheWire]

I’m going to geek out for a minute because I’m tired of the aviation reporting on this topic.

The vertical velocity that’s being reported of anywhere from 2k - 4K fpm isn’t unusual for a helicopter, and in controlled flight can be arrested to zero FPM without occupant injury in about one second.

Helo ops have reduced visibility (1/2mi vis) and only have to remain clear of clouds, unlike fixed wing aircraft.

I don’t like to speculate, but I expect the NTSB report will say something along the lines of “Probable cause for this accident was uncontrolled (as opposed to controlled) flight into terrain; contributing factors were weather conditions and the pilot’s lack of proficiency operating in instrument meteorological conditions, and the pilot’s aeronautical decision making.”

What I *think* and is most likely not provable, is the pilot suffered from spatial disorientation after entering instrument meteorological conditions and was unable to maintain directional control of the rotorcraft. Helos, unlike foxes wing aircraft are not inherently stable and have little tactile feedback to the pilot of the feedback forces being generated by control inputs.

What that means is that the only way a helo flies is by the pilot actively keeping the helicopter from killing him. When one loses spatial orientation, there’s only two things that can fix that: visually acquiring the horizon or the ground. Without either, the pilot falls back to an artificial horizon instrument; if the brain isn’t prepared to believe what it sees on that instrument then a delayed reaction occurs.

Spatial disorientation, known as the spins, or often (incorrectly) referred to as vertigo, induces the pilot to disbelieve what he sees, because the body is sensing something else. A deadly trick.

Thanks Todd! I've been waiting on your knowledge to shed light on this. I appreciate the write up.

 

[Rhino]

I don’t like to speculate, but I expect the NTSB report will say something along the lines of “Probable cause for this accident was uncontrolled (as opposed to controlled) flight into terrain; contributing factors were weather conditions and the pilot’s lack of proficiency operating in instrument meteorological conditions, and the pilot’s aeronautical decision making.”

What I *think* and is most likely not provable, is the pilot suffered from spatial disorientation after entering instrument meteorological conditions and was unable to maintain directional control of the rotorcraft. Helos, unlike foxes wing aircraft are not inherently stable and have little tactile feedback to the pilot of the feedback forces being generated by control inputs.

What that means is that the only way a helo flies is by the pilot actively keeping the helicopter from killing him. When one loses spatial orientation, there’s only two things that can fix that: visually acquiring the horizon or the ground. Without either, the pilot falls back to an artificial horizon instrument; if the brain isn’t prepared to believe what it sees on that instrument then a delayed reaction occurs.

Spatial disorientation, known as the spins, or often (incorrectly) referred to as vertigo, induces the pilot to disbelieve what he sees, because the body is sensing something else. A deadly trick.

Ditto... and frankly, it's something that can bite experienced pilots in the helicopter world in particular. Also the decision making process that led to the scenario is frankly a pretty known deal. Lots of pressure to get the job done even if it isn't directly coming from the person with money. You can give yourself pressure that isn't realistic or appropriate.

 

[rotor]

I’m going to geek out for a minute because I’m tired of the aviation reporting on this topic.

The vertical velocity that’s being reported of anywhere from 2k - 4K fpm isn’t unusual for a helicopter, and in controlled flight can be arrested to zero FPM without occupant injury in about one second.

Helo ops have reduced visibility (1/2mi vis) and only have to remain clear of clouds, unlike fixed wing aircraft.

I don’t like to speculate, but I expect the NTSB report will say something along the lines of “Probable cause for this accident was uncontrolled (as opposed to controlled) flight into terrain; contributing factors were weather conditions and the pilot’s lack of proficiency operating in instrument meteorological conditions, and the pilot’s aeronautical decision making.”

What I *think* and is most likely not provable, is the pilot suffered from spatial disorientation after entering instrument meteorological conditions and was unable to maintain directional control of the rotorcraft. Helos, unlike foxes wing aircraft are not inherently stable and have little tactile feedback to the pilot of the feedback forces being generated by control inputs.

What that means is that the only way a helo flies is by the pilot actively keeping the helicopter from killing him. When one loses spatial orientation, there’s only two things that can fix that: visually acquiring the horizon or the ground. Without either, the pilot falls back to an artificial horizon instrument; if the brain isn’t prepared to believe what it sees on that instrument then a delayed reaction occurs.

Spatial disorientation, known as the spins, or often (incorrectly) referred to as vertigo, induces the pilot to disbelieve what he sees, because the body is sensing something else. A deadly trick.

In simulators for helicopters I believe pilots became completely disoriented within 6 seconds after going into instrument conditions. The owners of the helicopter did not allow instrument flights so probably the pilot was not current in flying on the gauges. I am sure the helicopter was quite capable but the pilot was most probably not current. All speculation of course but most likely what NTSB will find. It is one issue to be flying at a safe altitude and going into instrument conditions especially with a good autopilot and a whole different situation to be at low altitude (scud running) with small mountains all around you.

 

[toddnjoyce]

In simulators for helicopters I believe pilots became completely disoriented within 6 seconds after going into instrument conditions....a good autopilot and a whole different situation to be at low altitude (scud running) with small mountains all around you.

Again, not unusual when proficiency in the skill doesn’t exist. The S76 has a really, really good autopilot, so much so that, unlike most helicopters, the platform is certified for single-pilot instrument work in the commercial environment.

The autopilot is couple with a stability augmentation system and the pilots operating handbook states flight in instrument conditions are hands-off, autopilot only. Unfortunately, if you’re not used to routinely flying with the AP on, you don’t know what mode it needs to be in when transitioning to the AP.

Trying to figure that out at 140+kts in the cloud isn’t usually successful, and probably wasn’t even tried. Most likely would have been just as deadly in this particular event.

 

[Younggun]

Again, not unusual when proficiency in the skill doesn’t exist. The S76 has a really, really good autopilot, so much so that, unlike most helicopters, the platform is certified for single-pilot instrument work in the commercial environment.

The autopilot is couple with a stability augmentation system and the pilots operating handbook states flight in instrument conditions are hands-off, autopilot only. Unfortunately, if you’re not used to routinely flying with the AP on, you don’t know what mode it needs to be in when transitioning to the AP.

Trying to figure that out at 140+kts in the cloud isn’t usually successful, and probably wasn’t even tried. Most likely would have been just as deadly in this particular event.

I watched a vid somewhere that said the autopilot on the S76 would disengage below a certain speed as well.


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[toddnjoyce]

I watched a vid somewhere that said the autopilot on the S76 would disengage below a certain speed as well

60kts is what I’ve heard, but won’t confirm since I don’t have a copy of the POH to review. I also don’t know if the S7600 AP has an auto hover mode.

Off to the airport now...trying on a Cirrus.

 

[rotor]

60kts is what I’ve heard, but won’t confirm since I don’t have a copy of the POH to review. I also don’t know if the S7600 AP has an auto hover mode.

Off to the airport now...trying on a Cirrus.

Have fun. Previous MooneyTLS owner and I bought a C150 aerobat in Boerne once. Great plane. Had an R22 once. Not easy to fly.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Have fun. Previous MooneyTLS owner and I bought a C150 aerobat in Boerne once. Great plane. Had an R22 once. Not easy to fly.

TLS/Bravos are sweet traveling machines.

1.3 in an SR20 G3. Avidyne Entegra avionics suite. The side stick wasn’t as big an issue as I expected; the plane sits high, like a Bonanza.