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  • Mikewood

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    Lawful use of force, deadly force question.
    Let’s say you are the driver of a back SUV. You cut off a pair of motorcycles in traffic. They begin to chase you and you call 911. They continue to give chase for four minutes as police are routed to the area. You are instructed by 911 to pull into a fire station which you do. One of the motorcyclists dismounts and approaches your driver door.

    At any time can you lawfully use force or deadly force and when?
    How would you handle the situation in this video?
    Did the SUV driver do a good job?
    What could he do better other than not making the alleged initial incident?
    Thanks!




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    Maverick44

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    Guy on the bike was clearly chasing him, and acted aggressively towards him. At any time the driver feared for their life, I would say deadly force would be justified. After seeing this video, if I was a juror I wouldn't convict the SUV driver of anything.

    The idiot biker is lucky the SUV driver wasn't armed, or didn't decide to use their car as a weapon. His hot headed decisions could have cost him his life.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Guy on the bike was clearly chasing him, and acted aggressively towards him. At any time the driver feared for their life, I would say deadly force would be justified. After seeing this video, if I was a juror I wouldn't convict the SUV driver of anything.

    The idiot biker is lucky the SUV driver wasn't armed, or didn't decide to use their car as a weapon. His hot headed decisions could have cost him his life.


    Being in fear of your life is not a justification for deadly force. Chapter 9 of the penal code is clear. The user of deadly force must reasonably believe that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect from anothers use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force, or to prevent the imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

    Chasing and acting aggressive are not, in an of themselves, justifications. They can be part of the "totality of the circumstances" that can add towards the defenders reasonable belief.
     

    Southpaw

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    Don't know, but if I was being chased by anyone, my windows are sure as hell going to be up. What did the driver think was going to happen when the kid approached his door? :facepalm:
     

    Mikewood

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    Don't know, but if I was being chased by anyone, my windows are sure as hell going to be up. What did the driver think was going to happen when the kid approached his door? :facepalm:

    I was thinking that myself. I remember a video a while back wibut a little girl and a knife attacking two guys in a locked 4x4. She stabbed the glass hard, slashed the tires and scratched the paint. They didn’t get out and I guess the cops showed up at some point. I would have liked to know what the resolution for that situation was.
    This one also.
    It’s good to game this stuff out so you have a plan and contingencies just in case this happens to us.
     

    ZX9RCAM

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    According to the video, the SUV was the instigator.
    That carries an abundance of weight on use right there.
     

    Mikewood

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    According to the video, the SUV was the instigator.
    That carries an abundance of weight on use right there.

    While I agree he was initially at fault would you say he clearly attempted to abandon the encounter? If I bump into you in a bar and you take offense. How long or how far do I need to go in fleeing from you? Outside? To the parking lot? Off property? Or I walk several blocks away making twists and turns and end up at a well lit city owned building?

    It’s an interesting case for “stand your ground”. The SUV driver clearly isn’t until he is instructed to. While those instructions are not “a lawful order by a police officer” we all remember George Zimmerman being told “you don’t need to do that” and what a political firestorm it caused.
     

    ZX9RCAM

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    I am the wrong person to answer that question, but I can't equate "spitting" on someone, to "accidentally" bumping into someone.
     

    txinvestigator

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    It’s an interesting case for “stand your ground”. The SUV driver clearly isn’t until he is instructed to. While those instructions are not “a lawful order by a police officer” we all remember George Zimmerman being told “you don’t need to do that” and what a political firestorm it caused.

    Keep in mind that Stand Your Ground, in Texas, has three restrictions. You have SYG if you were at a place where you had a right to be, you were not committing a crime at the time if the use of force/deadly force, and you didn't provoke the other person.

    I am not commenting on whether or not this video qualifies.
     

    easy rider

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    Seems to me both sides broke many laws, I'm not sure I would be on either side. I would be pissed if someone cut me off and spit at me, but it's not a lasting injury and there would be a point I would let it go, although, were I to come across him I would probably give him a piece of my mind. As far as justification for using deadly force, no, he provoked it and the kids on the bikes weren't pulling guns and I didn't see where his life was in eminent danger.
     

    V-Tach

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    So we miss the claimed "cutting off and spitting"" incident and only start with the chase........

    Only getting one side of the story......

    Doesn't have the claimed instigating/provoking incident on film.....

    Chasing someone for cutting you off and spitting at you? Let's endanger more lives? You are escalating the situation......both sides are pretty damn stupid, imho...
     

    Maverick44

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    Being in fear of your life is not a justification for deadly force. Chapter 9 of the penal code is clear. The user of deadly force must reasonably believe that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect from anothers use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force, or to prevent the imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

    Chasing and acting aggressive are not, in an of themselves, justifications. They can be part of the "totality of the circumstances" that can add towards the defenders reasonable belief.

    You're splitting hairs.

    Many, myself included would see "fearing for one's life", and "believing that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect from anothers use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force" as the same thing. If I fear for my life, it's because someone is threatening me in a way that I would believe that deadly force would be required to defend myself. Whatever that is may vary from person to person, but the key word in your post was "believe". If I believe my life is in danger, if I believe that lethal force in the only way to defend myself, then I have a right to use lethal force against an assailant.

    As for the justification, I never said that the chase and the aggressive actions where the only justifications needed. They certainly play a big part in that justification though. It is reasonable to believe that such actions towards someone could have the effect of making that person believe that their life was in imminent danger and that deadly force was required to defend their lives though. Again, the key word was "believe".

    Not directed totally at your post, but in general. I do not believe that stand your ground is necessary here. Regardless of the initial encounter, the individual in the SUV made every reasonable attempt to remove himself from the situation. He fled, called 911, and followed 911 directions. At that point, I believe lethal force would be called for if the individual believed his life was in immediate danger.

    As a result of this, I could not convict that SUV driver had he used lethal force and I had been on his jury.
     

    txinvestigator

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    You're splitting hairs.

    Many, myself included would see "fearing for one's life", and "believing that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect from anothers use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force" as the same thing. If I fear for my life, it's because someone is threatening me in a way that I would believe that deadly force would be required to defend myself. Whatever that is may vary from person to person, but the key word in your post was "believe". If I believe my life is in danger, if I believe that lethal force in the only way to defend myself, then I have a right to use lethal force against an assailant.
    You might see those as the same, but the law does not. In fact, the law never uses "in fear of your life" and does use the latter phrase. It is not your fear that makes the justifications, it is the facts and what, as you observed, was reasonable to believe.

    No, only if a trier of fact determines your belief was reasonable.

    Fear is never a justification; if you ever ride in a car with my sister........

    As for the justification, I never said that the chase and the aggressive actions where the only justifications needed. They certainly play a big part in that justification though. It is reasonable to believe that such actions towards someone could have the effect of making that person believe that their life was in imminent danger and that deadly force was required to defend their lives though. Again, the key word was "believe".
    no, the key PHRASE is reasonable belief, immediately necessary and UNLAWFUL DEADLY FORCE. Read chapter 9

    Not directed totally at your post, but in general. I do not believe that stand your ground is necessary here. Regardless of the initial encounter, the individual in the SUV made every reasonable attempt to remove himself from the situation. He fled, called 911, and followed 911 directions. At that point, I believe lethal force would be called for if the individual believed his life was in immediate danger.
    Already explained, but what if his belief was unreasonable?

    As a result of this, I could not convict that SUV driver had he used lethal force and I had been on his jury.
    Good to know you already made up your mind without all of the facts of hearing from the SUV driver.
     
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