Leaving gun in car at work

[40Arpent]

To paraphrase, my company's policy states that employees are not allowed to have firearms in their vehicles while parked on company property or in a garage that is attached to the company office building (leased or owned, no difference). It is a company policy that all employees must agree to in writing. In this case, it doesn't matter what the law is, you can be fired for breaking company policy.

 

[40Arpent]

Texas does not define firearm in that manner...

Thanks TI, I always appreciate your willingness to share the facts and to clarify matters of confusion.

How does Texas define a firearm?

Thanks,

Pete

 

[txinvestigator]

Thanks TI, I always appreciate your willingness to share the facts and to clarify matters of confusion.

How does Texas define a firearm?

Thanks,

Pete

Rather simply, believe it or not;

Texas Penal Code

46.01
(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use.

Humm, reading the section in red, it makes me wonder if the receiver might be a device readily convertible to that use.

I need to dig for some case law.

Hummmmmm...

 

[40Arpent]

Humm, reading the section in red, it makes me wonder if the receiver might be a device readily convertible to that use.

I need to dig for some case law.

Hummmmmm...

I take back what I said about you sharing "facts"....LOL, just kidding!

In my opinion, that leaves quite a bit to interpretation by any officer at the scene. And as easy as it is to slap a fully assembled AR upper on a lower, or any manner of handgun uppers onto their respective lowers...seems pretty "readily convertible" to me.

 

[DrBart2]

Do you mean it is not illegal? A 30.06 sign is not required for you to receive 30.06 notice. If the agrement they sign reads identical to the following;



Then having the gun in the car is illegal. Minus that wording it is strictly an employment issue.


BTW, you two have a CHL, unless you are carrying on some other state's license.

No, there is no "official" language to the agreement that she signed. As a matter of fact I had an attorney look at the document (being a doctor I know many attorneys). He laughed and said that it would never stand up as an official or legal document in a court of law, and said it was more of a guideline and suggestion. He said that if the company ever fired someone for not letting them conduct a search and that ex-employee pursued it legally, the company's attorney would probably, quickly settle out of court. The employee probably wouldn't get their job back, but the company would try to avoid a trial. The document did not mention 30.06 or have any other legal rules or wording. I have received legal counsel on this and made sure that my wife and I break no laws!!!! This is just an employment issue. Besides, as I said before she does not carry at work. In the car? There has been a few times where she had to go to work off hours (at night) where she had protection in the car, but just a few. Still, according to the law, not illegal. Could she be fired for it? Probably. C'est La Vie!!! Some risks are too great.

Yes we both have a CHL. oops

 

[txinvestigator]

No, there is no "official" language to the agreement that she signed.

Good!

 

[kville79]

Rather simply, believe it or not;



Humm, reading the section in red, it makes me wonder if the receiver might be a device readily convertible to that use.

I need to dig for some case law.

Hummmmmm...

I guess it comes down to what's deemed "readily convertible" I would actually retract what I said earlier, if a receiver/frame is completely stripped then I wouldn't consider it "readily" convertible into a functioning firearm. But in cases of things like AR-15's and feild stripped weapons, that's a different story.

 

[Nate C]

Without re-arguing the previously mentioned private parking lot restrictions or blanket consents to search by employers:

Given the number of vehicle burglaries and vehicle thefts in <insert your town here>, don't you think it would be irresponsible to leave a firearm or any other unsecured personal property in an unattended vehicle? I mean, it's not like the owner of that parking lot <insert your employer's name here> is going to assume any responsibility for loss or theft, right?

Wouldn't you all agree that a locking, hardsided container permanently and discretely attached to the car (bolted under the seat, in the trunk, in the console, or whatever) would be the most responsible means of storing said personal property in said unattended vehicle that is regularly parked in said crime-prone community? Heck, if you make an occasional cash bank deposit it might be a good idea to have something like that.

Now (assuming the employer ever even sees the storage receptacle) it sure is easy to forget and leave the key to that thing at the house. We only use it occasionally when we run to the bank. Gee, I'll bring the key with me to work and you can look in there first thing tomorrow morning...

 

[Jeff]

There was a case in Arkansas I believe where a lumbermill asked the local law enforcement folks to help check for illegal drugs. The dog that was used reacted positively for both weapons and drugs, resulting in the firing of several employees for violating the company's firearm policy. Not being able to store my weapon in my locked private vehicle while at work, denies me the right of self defense while travelling to and from my place of employment.

That's what I was thinking. I don't know where you work but I know very recently in the news there have been several teachers and school employees arrested when their vehicles were searched by K-9's and drugs were found. Now, either NO ONE carries on campus (per the law of no gun zones in schools this may be very likely) or these dogs only happened to find drugs. If the dog alerts to something they'll have all the probable cause they need to perform a search. Also, I'm not sure if your employer could find any way to get a K-9 to search their employees cars for drugs, guns, or anything else. Why would they?

So unless you work for a school district like HISD (Houston ISD,) who is now actively searching employees cars for drugs with K-9's, I don't think you'll ever have any need for concern over your car being searched. Could you be charged? Depending on what you've signed and their policy, sure. Is it at all likely? Not at all!! I just can't think of any instance where an employer would ever need or want to search your vehicle. Unless there are extinuating circumstances such as you making threats to other employees, etc.

One very possible scenario that does come to mind is if your car is broken into while you're parked at work, your gun is in your vehicle, and someone steals the gun or your entire vehicle with the gun. Do you notify the police, report the missing handgun and burglary of your vehicle, subsequently admitting to your employer that you were illegally carrying? Or, do you not say a word and hope your gun doesn't get used in a homicide, found, and all you have is a claim that it was stolen but you didn't report it? Or, hope the employer doesn't find out?

Tough call, but personally I'd still carry it regardless of the employers policy. Just as the above poster has said, their policy is essentially denying you the right of self-defense (OK, a great tool of self-defense) to and from work (and realistically anywhere else you stop to and from work.) It's a shame.

 

[JKTex]

To the school issue, unless the teachers/administrators are bound to an ISD's policy of no weapons in cars at school, Local LE can sniff for drugs all day long and can't do anything about a legally owned gun in a personal car in a parking lot. It not different that any other employee working for any other employer.

The fact is, it's likely districts do have that policy, I'd bet.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Jeff]

To the school issue, unless the teachers/administrators are bound to an ISD's policy of no weapons in cars at school, Local LE can sniff for drugs all day long and can't do anything about a legally owned gun in a personal car in a parking lot. It not different that any other employee working for any other employer.

The fact is, it's likely districts do have that policy, I'd bet.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

What I mean is, if the K-9 alerts to something in the car (because it has been trained to search for the smell of drugs+guns) they will have probable cause to search the car. I don't know of a single district here that isn't a gun/drug free zone. No guns allowed at all, not even in the parking lots.

 

[txinvestigator]

What I mean is, if the K-9 alerts to something in the car (because it has been trained to search for the smell of drugs+guns) they will have probable cause to search the car. I don't know of a single district here that isn't a gun/drug free zone. No guns allowed at all, not even in the parking lots.

And what could the criminal charge be? I also didn't know a K9 could smell a gun.

 

[40Arpent]

I don't know of a single district here that isn't a gun/drug free zone. No guns allowed at all, not even in the parking lots.

For every elementary, middle, and high school parking lot I have ever driven into in the districts of Katy, Cypress Fairbanks, Klein, Spring, Woodlands, Kingwood, etc., etc., I have never, not once, encountered a 30.06 sign or any other sign indicating any type of policy or restriction against the legal possession of a firearm. I can only assume you are confusing state laws with a school district's employment policies and/or student codes of conduct.

 

[40Arpent]

Jeff, this is excerpted from the Cy-Fair employee standards of conduct:

Firearms
Legislation enacted by the 74th Regular Session of the Texas Legislature regarding the bearing of firearms provided
employers with the right to prohibit firearms from the workplace. Firearms are prohibited from any and all property
of the Cypress-Fairbanks Independent School District with the exception of licensed peace officers who are serving in
their official capacity. This prohibition includes vehicles on any school property.

I'd think that most districts in the Houston area have the same standard, but that doesn't make it illegal for a CHL holder to possess a concealed handgun in the parking lot of the school.

Just trying to add some clarity between law and company policy...

 

[txinvestigator]

For every elementary, middle, and high school parking lot I have ever driven into in the districts of Katy, Cypress Fairbanks, Klein, Spring, Woodlands, Kingwood, etc., etc., I have never, not once, encountered a 30.06 sign or any other sign indicating any type of policy or restriction against the legal possession of a firearm. I can only assume you are confusing state laws with a school district's employment policies and/or student codes of conduct.

Even WITH a 30.06 sign at the entrance to the parking lot or 30.06 wording in a manual or policy, a Government School would still not be able to prosecute for having a handgun in the vehicle on the parking lot.

Texas Penal Code
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN

(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

 

[Jeff]

And what could the criminal charge be? I also didn't know a K9 could smell a gun.

Yes, and it's not all uncommon. A trained police K9 can find just about anything and they are often trained to sniff out gunpowder, as well as drugs, etc... So even if the gun wasn't recently used at the range and not cleaned, they can still smell the powder, inside of a shell, inside of the magazine, wrapped up in a diaper, hidden under the carpet of a car. Point is, it is true that they can search for guns and can find them without even entering a vehicle.

Certain dogs are trained to smell for anything that can be used to make a bomb, i.e. gunpowder. Dogs that are typically 'drug dogs' also are trained to search for gunpowder as we all know, with criminals, guns and drugs go together likes peas and carrots. They are also trained to do article searches and search for a particular scent. They are often even used at scenes of robberies where the suspect dropped a gun while runnng, etc. They can find almost anything.

As far as the topic of the OP goes, this really has nothing to do with him, but I would like to clarify this school zone sign and what it actually means. I'll get a pic today and post it up in here.

And you're right, "illegal" wasn't the term I was looking for and was definitely a poor choice of words on my part. I'm going to get a pic of the sign I'm talking about and see what y'all think of it, whether it's just a policy, and what the specifics are. I'd like to know myself as an elementary school is right behind my house with the signs up all over.

 

[Jeff]

Alright, I went and got a pic of it as like I said it's just behind my house.

Anyone have any idea what the specifics of such a sign like this may be?

This is out on the street in front of an elementary school in a neighborhood.

Is this any different from any other invalid 30.06 sign or are there pre-existing laws regarding school property? I notice that it says nothing of guns, rather "weapons" in general and I thought previously that a great example of a typical, invalid 30.06 sign was just a gun crossed out like in this case. So, what's everyone's thoughts?

 

[40Arpent]

and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

And if I recall correctly, neither 46.03 nor 46.035 prohibit legal concealed carry in school parking lots. So, if I have that right (?), the sign that Jeff photographed and posted is basically a waste of metal and paint.

 

[Jeff]

And if I recall correctly, neither 46.03 nor 46.035 prohibit legal concealed carry in school parking lots. So, if I have that right (?), the sign that Jeff photographed and posted is basically a waste of metal and paint.

That was my thinking. Is this just some sort of reminder by the school that drugs and weapons aren't allowed unless you're carrying with a CHL? Is there any sort of law that would forbid me from carrying concealed in the parking lot? In the school?

Also - it may be important to note that this school is also a registered polling place for the area. But does that only count during the time that polls are being conducted?

 

[txinvestigator]

Yes, and it's not all uncommon. A trained police K9 can find just about anything and they are often trained to sniff out gunpowder, as well as drugs, etc... So even if the gun wasn't recently used at the range and not cleaned, they can still smell the powder, inside of a shell, inside of the magazine, wrapped up in a diaper, hidden under the carpet of a car. Point is, it is true that they can search for guns and can find them without even entering a vehicle.

.

So they cannot smell guns, they smell gunpowder. I knew that. silly