Lynx Defense

Lee Classic Loader 45-70 questions

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  • TreyG-20

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    First time reloaded here.

    I picked up lee classic handloader for 45-70. I have almost everything I need to get started including some calipers and digital scale.

    I found this old load data from older lee loaders using the supplied dipper. My new loading kit has different load data and a larger 3.4cc dipper compared to the 3.1cc listed in the older data below. Is the older data still relevant if I get my powder weights proper? I have a pound of IMR 4227 and a pound of IMR 3031. Loads are listed for both of those powders.

    My new load data doesn't list the 4227 powder and I have read that 4227 is best for 44 mag loads. Can I still use this old data from the old lee loaders to reload using the IMR 4227? Or should I try to trade it for H4895? I really wanted some H4895 and H4198, but it is next to impossible to find right now as yall already know. So I settled for the 3031 and 4227. I'm not concerned about the 3031 powder as there is old and new load data for that.

    For my projectiles I will be using a .458 350gr Meister Hardcast bullet from Midway and the 325gr Hornady FTX. I have some factory shorter Hornady brass for the latter and Starline for the cast bullet.

    I'd like to keep the cast bullets in the 1400ish FPS range and the FTX around 1800.

    Gun is Marlin 1895 Guide gun.

    I can't wait to jump into this, but want to be sure I have the correct components first. Now If I could find a couple hundred large rifle primers I'd be in buisness!

    I should buy a manual I know, for now I'm using free data from reputable sources online to figure out where to start. Any recommendations for a manual with a broad range of 45-70 load data?
    Hurley's Gold
     

    TreyG-20

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    Older Lee data
    20201020_085720.jpg

    New lee data
    20201020_092527.jpg
     

    craigntx

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    Lee plays it safe (light) with the data.
    To get your feet wet if you can get some trail boss that stuff is engineered to allow you to fill the case, without compressing it, and not be over pressure. 44 special would prolly be a better application for it though. Or 45 70
     

    TreyG-20

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    Lee plays it safe (light) with the data.
    To get your feet wet.
    This is what I really want to know. I want to be safe and looking for a good place to start. I won't even attempt hotter loads until I have this down to a science and have a chronograph. I know these load data sheets are for beginners like myself and are safe. Just curious if the old data is still good to use and safe.

    Is IMR 4227 powder still the same today as it was produced back when the older data was published? It appears to be a bit hotter of a loading from the ones listed at 40.3 grains.

    I will eventually switch to a better powder for this application when I find some. I'm wondering if I should do that now from the start and forget using the 4227 or if I should try it. Is 40.3 grains of IMR 4227 still a good and safe place to start with behind a 325gr jacketed FTX? I'll use the IMR 3031 for the cast bullets and eventually upgrade to other powders when they are available.
     

    rotor

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    Hornady 9th does not list either IMR powder for the 325 FTX. Hodgdon does not list any data for your bullets. Usually they list Meister hard cast but not on their site for this caliber. I would be very cautious proceeding on. I only load published data.
     

    TreyG-20

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    Hornady 9th does not list either IMR powder for the 325 FTX. Hodgdon does not list any data for your bullets. Usually they list Meister hard cast but not on their site for this caliber. I would be very cautious proceeding on. I only load published data.
    I will not proceed until I do.
     

    jrbfishn

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    Some of the load data I use is 20 years old or more. If the powder formula hasn't changed it should be fine as long as you use a similar bullet.
    Load Data books have caliber specific books. IIRC, they have one for 45-70. I know the ones I have for .45 Colt and .38 Special have load data for very old design lead bullets as well as newer ones.
    If you have a scale, the data you have for 4227 should work fine. Just weigh it instead of dipping it.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
     

    TreyG-20

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    Hodgdon has a really good online load data section. It's a valuable resource if you're using their powders.

    Have you checked there?
    Not specifically. I downloaded an app that supposedly includes several manuals worth of information. I believe Hogdon is one of them. I have yet to research it yet, but from a quick look it includes a lot of data for 45-70. I'll have some reading to do this evening.
     

    TxStetson

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    Not specifically. I downloaded an app that supposedly includes several manuals worth of information. I believe Hogdon is one of them. I have yet to research it yet, but from a quick look it includes a lot of data for 45-70. I'll have some reading to do this evening.
    I think here means here:

    Hodgdon Reloading
     

    rotor

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    My manuals, and I have more than one, consider the 45-70 as three different rifles. The trapdoor, the Marlin Winchester, the Ruger. There are warnings not to use the Marlin and Ruger loadings in the trapdoor and not to use Ruger in the Marlin. I can find nothing for the 350 Meisters But Lyman has a 330 #2 alloy using 43.0-47.5 of IMR 3031 for the trapdoor. For the 1895 Marlin it is 50.0-55.0 for the same bullet. They don't list 3031 for the Ruger. Lyman 49, newer may be different. I suggest you buy some manuals, Lyman is good. If you buy a Speer or Hornady it will be specific to their bullets. Please do not use dippers as a source for loading but use a scale. This stuff is very serious. I consider online data only from the powder makers and or published manuals. Don't use my numbers either as I may be reading it wrong. Powder and primers are hard to get but manuals are easy to find. Lee and Lyman are good starters. All of the manufacturers have data on the internet. Get safety glasses too. Meister sells a book for load data with their bullets. You might try contacting them and see if they can help with load data.
    The Lee data at least for 3031 appears to be very conservative for a Marlin guide gun.
     

    TreyG-20

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    My manuals, and I have more than one, consider the 45-70 as three different rifles. The trapdoor, the Marlin Winchester, the Ruger. There are warnings not to use the Marlin and Ruger loadings in the trapdoor and not to use Ruger in the Marlin. I can find nothing for the 350 Meisters But Lyman has a 330 #2 alloy using 43.0-47.5 of IMR 3031 for the trapdoor. For the 1895 Marlin it is 50.0-55.0 for the same bullet. They don't list 3031 for the Ruger. Lyman 49, newer may be different. I suggest you buy some manuals, Lyman is good. If you buy a Speer or Hornady it will be specific to their bullets. Please do not use dippers as a source for loading but use a scale. This stuff is very serious. I consider online data only from the powder makers and or published manuals. Don't use my numbers either as I may be reading it wrong. Powder and primers are hard to get but manuals are easy to find. Lee and Lyman are good starters. All of the manufacturers have data on the internet. Get safety glasses too. Meister sells a book for load data with their bullets. You might try contacting them and see if they can help with load data.
    The Lee data at least for 3031 appears to be very conservative for a Marlin guide gun.
    Roger that. Thanks!
     

    TreyG-20

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    More questions here. First I understand this is a crude way of reloading and probably not going to be the most consistent. My goal here is to make safe plinking loads and I have been staying at the start point for reloading data.

    I am having issues with crimping properly using the lee classic loader. More specifically with a Speer 300gr jacketed bullet. For my first round I used 350gr cast bullets and flared out the case mouth a bit. The crimps on these was much easier since there is a pronunced crimp groove. The jacketed bullets I am using do not require a flared mouth as they will seat easily without.

    I am keeping my OAL at 2.525" as per the manual. I can get what looks like a decent crimp, but loaded a few into my Marlin tube mag and gave it a couple of good smacks on the buttstock to simulate recoil. I then cycled the rounds through the action(no issues there) and remeasured all of them. I have lost between 0.010" and 0.015" of OAL. They are setting back a bit now measuring between 2.510" and 2.515". I then went back to the table and cannot get more of crimp on them without buckling the case. No good.


    Question 1. How much of a difference safety wise is 0.015 of an inch considering I am at the very low end of the powder charge for a trapdoor load? I understand the jump to the rifling may reduce accuracy, but I'm more concerned about safety. I'm not shooting for sub moa groups just making a safe plinking load.

    Question 2. Is there a specific press or tool I can buy to specifically for the crimping process? Something that can make it more uniform and tight?

    Below are pictures of a crimp using the lee classic loader one with a cast bullet the other with the jacketed. You can see that the crimp on the cast is much better than the jacketed. Although none are perfect.

    20201103_115954.jpg
    20201103_120026.jpg
     

    robertc1024

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    That is not uncommon when trying to get a crimp on jacketed bullets. I ended up buying dedicated crimping dies for the loads I wanted to crimp (.44 Mag, .357) You also have to be careful when crimping plated bullets because you can completely cut through the plating.

    Can't help you much on the potential increased pressure from the setback. I'd probably shoot them because you started with such a light load.
     
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