Legal Concealed Carry in a US Post Office

[JKTex]

....oxymoron or not?

This comes up over and over and all kinds of legal chatter starts up citing State, Federal and Postal Service laws and regulations.

Some Post Offices have metal detectors? Deterrent?

Some have cute non-30.06 signs some have nothing. Relevant?

Ask a Postmaster and get referred up the chain. Ask local law and they refer you to US Postal Inspectors or Fed's.

We all have thoughts and opinions but they don't mean much when you drop my the PO to drop a package or letter off in the self-serve facilities or buy a MO. Besides, you can find opinions and ideal discussion all over. I'm hoping for a thread with some meat. Cite laws, cases, personal experiance etc...

Ladies and Gentlemen, start you're engines....

 

[txinvestigator]

Humm, the 30.06 sign......Does the exclusion in 30.06 of "premises owned or leased by a government entity" extend to federal property? Interesting.


The US code makes the possession of weapons prohibited, except for "lawful purposes". However, the postal code rules speciflcally proscribes the carry of weapons.

US Code Title 18
§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d)Subsection (a) shall not apply to— (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

Title 39 CFR 232.1
(l) Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

(p) Penalties and other law. (1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved.
(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

q) Enforcement. (1) Members of the U.S. Postal Service security force shall exercise the powers provided by 18 U.S.C. 3061(c)(2) and shall be responsible for enforcing the regulations in this section in a manner that will protect Postal Service property and persons thereon

 

[JKTex]

I figured and hoped you'd chime in.

This comes up and I have yet to see anyone find anything definitive. However, the last line in 232.1 (q) (1) falls right into place nicely. A Post Office is, as I understand, not recognized as a "Federal" property and USPS regulations take over, but they aren't clear. I've read of people that carry open and concealed in their PO's after checking with the local Post Master. It seems, it's ambiguous enough, but leaves enforcing up to the local PO. Thus some PO's with metal detectors possibly?

Bring on more....

 

[Nate C]

No you can not. The statutory authority is found in 39CFR232.1, rather than 18USC930, but that statute can also apply depending on circumstances.

Yes, the Postal Service is still part of the federal government, and yes, Post Offices are federal facilities, regardless of whether GSA or USPS owns/leases the real estate.

As for 30.06 verbage being seen, some Post Offices are actually privately owned and contract with Post Office to perform postal services, i.e. a hardware store or a pharmacy might also have a little Post Office inside.

 

[JKTex]

This one collected some dust, but you are correct. Page 59

l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

I'd like to find, and so far haven't, the definitions for the the Code of Federal Regulations. Although I'm sure that legally carrying concealed is not part of the definition or clearly excludes it.
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[JKTex]

For grins I searched to see what comes up now. Here's something posted on Glocktalk. Although addressing a question that pertains to Ohio, it's got several relevant points, excluding specifics to an Ohio CHL .

It's really a pain in the ass to pull up to the USPS and have to try to unholster and lock up a handgun while trying to make sure Mrs. Smith in the minivan next to you unloading the kids doesn't happen to look over and notice the "guy in the parking lot with a gun". All to spend 45 seconds walking and dropping a package in a box.

Something else to ponder.

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There is considerable confusion over whether an Ohio Concealed Handgun Licensee (CHL) can carry a concealed firearm at the post office. This confusion mostly centers around the wording on the signs posted at the post office. The signs quote two sections of federal regulation - 18 USC 930 and 39 CFR 232.1.

Looking at 18 USC 930, it would appear, at first blush, that carrying firearms is prohibited. That section provides:

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

Release date: 2004-08-06

a. Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

So part of the confusion is rooted in the wording of this section. The prohibition applies to "Federal facilit(ies)" except as provide for in subsection (d). Subsection (d) provides:

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to-

(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

Many people have seized upon (d)(3) with the argument that they have a CHL, so their carrying of a firearm is an "other lawful purpose" and therefore they are exempt from the sign. This is problematic for several reasons. First, 39 USC 410 exempts Post Offices from 18 USC 930 (being a statute dealing with Federal facilities in general.) 39 USC 410, specifically dealing with post offices, states:

§ 410. Application of other laws

Release date: 2003-06-24

(a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

(b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

(1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;

(2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;

Thus it would appear, by operation of 39 USC 410, that 18 USC 930, a law that deals generally with Federal property, does not apply to the Powers of the Postal Service. Rather, the only provisions of 18 USC that would apply are those specific to the post office e.g. Theft of Mail, Robbing Post Offices, Stealing Postal Money Orders etc. Further evidence of the proposition that 18 USC 930 does not apply to post offices is in the numbering of the aforementioned 39 CFR 232.1. As we will later examine, 39 CFR 232.1 clearly prohibits carrying firearms. CFR sections typically draw their numbering from the underlying laws that they are promulgated under, although there are numerous exceptions. The numbering of 39 CFR would be further evidence that 39 USC controls the situation, and not 18 USC.

The second problem with relying on 18 USC 930(d)(3) is that this section in no way EMPOWERS anyone to carry a gun; rather, that section simply states that 18 USC 930 does not apply to someone is lawfully carrying a gun incident to some lawful purpose. In Ohio's law, there is a big difference between something NOT BEING PROHIBITED and something BEING SPECIFICALLY LICENSED. Just because a statute says that certain conduct is not prohibited by that particular statute does not automatically equate into authority to engage in the conduct.

This is an important distinction, because the other part of the post office sign cites 39 CFR 232.1, which clearly does prohibit guns in post offices. In pertinent part, it states:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
The argument advanced against 39 CFR 232.1 is that a regulation cannot conflict with a statute, and indeed, a later portion, 39 CFR 232.1(p), states "Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated." So would 39 CFR 232.1 be in conflict if it is read to prohibit a CHL from carrying at the post office? It does not appear that this would be the case.

First, as we previously examined, 18 USC 930 does not apply to a post office. Second, as we previously examined, even if 18 USC 930 DID apply to post offices, remember that 18 USC 930(d) merely states that the lawful carrying of a firearm is not prohibited by 18 USC 930(a), not that the lawful carrying of a firearm is allowed. This being the case, what is 39 CFR 232.1 in conflict with? I think it is difficult to argue it is in conflict with anything.

This being the case, at a minimum, we have a situation where there is a valid RULE prohibiting the carrying of firearms, and properly posted signs evidencing this fact. That being the case, an Ohio CHL is prohibited from carrying at the post office by Ohio's criminal trespass. If an expansive reading is given to 39 CFR 232.1 and it is considered a FEDERAL LAW, and/or there is a federal law that makes it a crime to violate a provision of the CFR, then carrying at a post office would be prohibited by 2923.126(B)(10), meaning that the Ohio CHL would be committing a felony by carrying at the post office.
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[chevydeerhunter]

Simply put, you may not carry at a post office. And to go further, it is also illegal to have a firearm on postal property.

During hunting season, you can always tell who's going hunting and has a gun because they're parked off property.

 

[thorkyl]

Simply put, you may not carry at a post office. And to go further, it is also illegal to have a firearm on postal property.

During hunting season, you can always tell who's going hunting and has a gun because they're parked off property.

The postal rules & regulations themselves are a mess.

It is still legal to walk into a post office with a shotgun in a box and mail it.
Talking about concealed carry...

I asked our Post Master. His response, and I am quoting him...

"I have no clue, and I don't care if you do or don't"

(He and I go hunting together

 

[Renegade]

it is also illegal to have a firearm on postal property. .

Since it is legal to mail firearms, that is obviously not true. There are exceptions.

I have not seen anything that says CC is not allowed. All I see is what does "or other lawful purposes" mean?"

I also do not see an exemption for state/local LEOs, or even Federal LEO for that matter.

 

[jelewill]

There is no mention of carrying with or without a legal license or permit to carry a concealed handgun. That bothers me. I wish they would write the laws in layman's english.

 

[majormadmax]

There is no mention of carrying with or without a legal license or permit to carry a concealed handgun. That bothers me. I wish they would write the laws in layman's english.

I think Title 18, §930 is clear enough layman's English for me...

a. Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

If that isn't convincing enough, then try 39 CFR 232.1...

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

How much more do you want?!?

 

[Renegade]

I also do not see an exemption for state/local LEOs, or even Federal LEO for that matter.

Well I will correct myself. As posted by TXI:

(d)Subsection (a) shall not apply to— (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

This would give them said exemption. Unfortunately, it gives just about any public employee the right to carry there, as the phrase "authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law; " is extremely broad. Animal Control Officer, Code enforcement, and many, many non-LEOs meet that definition. Even a High School teacher.

 

[slammr]

I've yet to see a 30.06 or "no firearms" sign at any PO I've been to in Texas. I did see one at a UPS location that was the one designated for shipping firearms. Go figure.....

 

[Bithabus]

or there is a federal law that makes it a crime to violate a provision of the CFR, then carrying at a post office would be prohibited by 2923.126(B)(10),
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[h=1]39 CFR 232.1 - Conduct on postal property.[/h]


§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

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(l) Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
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(p) Penalties and other law. (1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved.
(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to a fine as provided in 18 U.S.C. 3571 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations or any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

 

[Renegade]

I've yet to see a 30.06 or "no firearms" sign at any PO I've been to in Texas. I did see one at a UPS location that was the one designated for shipping firearms. Go figure.....

Can you be arrested for violating Texas law on Federal Property?

 

[Bithabus]

TITLE 18 > PART II > CHAPTER 203 > § 3061



§ 3061. Investigative powers of Postal Service personnel

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(c)
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(4) (A) As to such property, the Postmaster General may prescribe regulations necessary for the protection and administration of property owned or occupied by the Postal Service and persons on the property. The regulations may include reasonable penalties, within the limits prescribed in subparagraph (B), for violations of the regulations. The regulations shall be posted and remain posted in a conspicuous place on the property.
(B) A person violating a regulation prescribed under this subsection shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for not more than 30 days, or both.

 

[Bithabus]

So, since 18 USC 930 does not apply to Post Offices and 39 CFR 232.1 is punishable by law, Post Office carry is illegal.

Great thread.

 

[lalonguecarabine]

Great thread.

13 October 2008 to 19 December 2011?! Holy resurrections, Batman!

 

[Driller]

It is not an issue until it is no longer concealed, which means you are in defense of your life. I would rather be alive defending why I had a weapon on postal property than dead missing the chance to see my children grow up.

 

[Bithabus]

13 October 2008 to 19 December 2011?! Holy resurrections, Batman!

Ha, I didn't even notice. I wasn't aware until reading this thread that 18 USC 930 doesn't apply to Postal property.